CSEMARTIN Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I looked through the rule book tonight and noticed that ESP guns can weigh 43 ounces, yet a CDP gun can only weigh 41 ounces including an empty magazine. Can anyone explain this rule to me? With a guide rod and magazine well, my CDP gun is just over the limit. I'm not trying to bash IDPA. I would just like to know the logic behind this rule. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I looked through the rule book tonight and noticed that ESP guns can weigh 43 ounces, yet a CDP gun can only weigh 41 ounces including an empty magazine.Can anyone explain this rule to me? With a guide rod and magazine well, my CDP gun is just over the limit. I'm not trying to bash IDPA. I would just like to know the logic behind this rule. Thanks! I'm no expert but 99% of standard single stack 1911's will have no problem making the weight limit even with FLGR and magwells. 9mm and .40 S&W 1911's might get the 2oz "break" because of the heavier barrels due to the smaller bores. Just a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted October 9, 2006 Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 I must be in that 1%, or the scale I used isn't accurate. I'm weighing in at 42 ounces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 9mm and .40 S&W 1911's might get the 2oz "break" because of the heavier barrels due to the smaller bores. Just a guess. That's the how it was explained to me, the logic of the additional weight allowed is because of the heavier barrels in 9/40. FWIW my esp gun rolls in at 39.6 oz (postal scale). Can I give the additional 2.4 oz to someone else in case they are over weight? If so CSEMARTIN You are welcome to the 2.4 oz from me. If you don't need it all please pass it along to anyone else who needs it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 My Para P16 with a S&A aluminum magwell that has been shaved down to fit in the box comes in at 42.7 ounces. Same setup with in 9mm will probably not make the weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GmanCdp Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 the wizard's didn't want to see the 45acp full dust cover guns with a bull bbl or weighted taper bbl in CDP... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTDR Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 from what i was told they took several popular hand guns, and weighed them, this determined the wight factor, it wasn't a pick of choice, but a pick of averages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Shouldn't be a pick of anything. If you carry it, it should be legal! I got my Arizona CCW with a STI Edge and will probably do the same with my North Carolina permit (either that or a tricked out Glock 22). I can understand not wanting an equipment race, but damn. How about just some basic design criteria and move on? Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Big Dog, I don't believe you, you can't POSSIBLY carry an STI!!! ANd with one of THOSE dust cover thingies? The cartel would NOT approve. More bullets, lighter weight, better shoot-a-bility......those are bad things. Sorry a breaker popped. Guys, stop trying to "teach the pig to sing". They are arbitrary rules, and you just have to deal with them. Guys, it's a game, the guns have a weight class. No it doesn't make sense for "real world" or "carry" or "street", it "makes sense" to the BOD and what guns (and shooters) they are trying to "dis-invite" to their little party. You choose to play that game, you choose to abide by their rules. Do they make sense? Should they have been thought through a little more instead of spending soooo much energy making sure this gun or that gun doesn't "ruin the curve". (Or that those kind of shooters don't show up...) Hell, my Full RACE and non "cartel approved" Limited guns weigh less than 36 ounces. I guess there will just have to be a rule about allergies to plastic. Or how about a commitee that approves features as aesthetically pleasing, I mean tacti-kewl? Personally, not that you asked, but I think it's a shame. It's frustrating the new shooters, the shooters trying to have nice guns built, and especially the gun makers. This is a lot like what they did a couple years ago with the wheel guns. Why not make it simple, let people shoot what they have, let racers race, and scowlers scowl? Get more shooters out instead of....well, what we have now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 (edited) The barrel OD for 9mm guns is the same as .45; however, the hole in the center is smaller. This means more steel left behind and therefore a couple more ounces of weight all else being equal. The weight limits are just lines in the sand. They had to pick something and they did. The 41oz limit will work for LOTS of guns with magwells, adjustable sights, and full length steel guide rods. One place that seems to make the difference is how much frame is cut away in the "window" under the grips. It isn't hard to make weight for most guns, but with as many 1911 components as there are out there someone is going to be affected. Edited October 9, 2006 by vincent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 The scary part is finding the guy anal enough to check it. Could you imagine that? Getting a match DQ 'cause your gun was a BB too heavy? Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I've been weighed at a sanctioned match. It was right before placing the gun into the box for a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 (edited) Big Dog, I don't believe you, you can't POSSIBLY carry an STI!!! ANd with one of THOSE dust cover thingies? The cartel would NOT approve. More bullets, lighter weight, better shoot-a-bility......those are bad things. You should have seen the look on the face of the guy I worked with in Kansas when I pulled the Edge out of my front pocket. I had a snowboard jacket on and between it, the baggy jeans I was wearing and that I'm 6'-3" and 230-ish, you couldn't tell I had anything in my pocket (insert smart ass comment from Flex) much less a 5" Edge. Rich ETA: I've been weighed at a sanctioned match. It was right before placing the gun into the box for a start. I stand corrected. There are those that anal. Wow....that explains so much. This had to be out at NCPS. Edited October 9, 2006 by uscbigdawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Well it's SDPS since NCPS is a USPSA club. We also had the holster check and the 3/4" dowel just in case you are too skinny or your holster was hanging out there. Of couse this was just a few weeks after the rulebook came out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Well it's SDPS since NCPS is a USPSA club. We also had the holster check and the 3/4" dowel just in case you are too skinny or your holster was hanging out there. Of couse this was just a few weeks after the rulebook came out. Smart ass you knew what I meant. But I did get the right group of people. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted October 9, 2006 Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 At the Michigan State IDPA Match this year, Jack Allen inspected everyone's equipment at registration. Anxiety provoking? sure! Good idea? Absolutely!!! I was a little nervous about my beavertail so I went back to my car and got my backup gun. I'm glad he didn't weigh it. I'm sure it's also over the weight limit, but I've never specifically checked that gun's weight. On a side note, I talked with Jack after the match, and he told me that he found two people with hot guns! I guess that's a topic for another time, but it sure makes you think..... I thought the whole purpose of the weight issue was the fact that if it was over a certain weight, no reasonable person would carry it. Therefore, it doesn't meet the spirit of IDPA. If a reasonable person would carry a 43 ounce 9mm, wouldn't a reasonable person carry a 43 ounce .45? After all, the modifications that have been done to my boys are legal. I just don't get it. I know the founders of IDPA don't like to get bashed. I don't blame them. I wouldn't either. I've discussed this with Joyce Wilson in the past. She's a very nice lady. I just wish the decision makers at IDPA were more receptive to our input. I'll quit complaining and be thankful for what I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTDR Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 (edited) The weight limits are just lines in the sand. They had to pick something and they did. exactly what weight limit if any do any of you propose? if no weight limit, great i will be the one with the 50 oz esp gun Edited October 9, 2006 by FTDR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Frankly, I wouldn't have a weight limit at all. You can address go/no-go criteria by allowable modifications, but ones that make sense. Take a prototypical 1911 these days: 5" w/ barrel & bushing, SS FLGR, Bo-Mar's, Beavertail, magwell and ambi-safeties. I think that about covers what's "normal" and would be "heavy". Now this is a good CDP pistol in .45 or a ESP in 9mm. But it'd be a no-go if too heavy? Give me a break. Why is a bull barrel illegal to begin with? Personally I think the fewer parts a machine has the more efficiently it runs. Just my $0.02. Obviously for IDPA, you don't want it to degrade to a tungsten bull barrel, but off the top of my head, there's one manufacturer of this and how many of the top IPSC shooters even use this? Same for the gamey non-ported Scheumann barrels on SV's and the like. There's just a lack of logic in some of the rules and that's where the original poster is going with this. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Part of the history of IDPA (at least from the rumor mill) is that the founders of IDPA watched USPSA go from something they liked into something they didn't like as much with a lot of the discontent based on equipment rules. Several of these guys were part of the creation of the Limited division in USPSA. Before that every gun competed in the same division. Turns out they didn't like the Limited division rules that came about. These same guys don't want history to repeat itself with IDPA. The ideas behind the rules makes sense when you look at it from the other side of the fence. They have a clear idea of what they want in the sport and what they don't want. Part of keeping it "pure" is not being a democracy. IMO the equipment rules in IDPA are not where the organization should be spending it's "rule update" energy. Not until you can go from state match to state match across the country and get the same calls from different groups of SO's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 (edited) IMO the equipment rules in IDPA are not where the organization should be spending it's "rule update" energy. Not until you can go from state match to state match across the country and get the same calls from different groups of SO's. Exactly. For instance, and this is rhetorical 'cause I don't want to hi-jack the thread, but why does there need to be a list of approved concealed carry holsters? Is it that big a problem? Simplicity is your friend. And as for the sport de-grading because of equipment I think it's funny how the mechanics and designs of modern pistols are made up of so much of what Brian, Robbie, Jerry, Chip, et. al. were doing 20 years ago. Rich Edited October 9, 2006 by uscbigdawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 My .02 I'll have to go with the ESP 9mm barrel hole thing and leave it at that. Other than that thems the rules, and thats how you have to play if you want to play. Are they good rules, I'm not to say but I follow them so I can play. If you really want to shoot your .45 that is 2oz over, remove the FLGR and install a regular type. Or remove the SA, I wouldn't, and install a plastic, I know I know plastic on a 1911, MSH and a wilson magwell. Or if your just a touch over with your SA magwell, take a little off the inner part where the mag goes in, ala blending. I've got spare MSH, factory type recoil guides just in case. To be honest though my SA black stainless comes in under 41oz with wilson mags but it doesn't have an ambi safty or adjustables. When I get those put on and its over, I'll lose the FLGR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Rich, They were 'anal' enough to weigh guns at this years Nationals. At least 2 guys got FTDRs for being overweight. As for an approved holster list, that went away with the LGB. There are holster parameters now, rather than a list. While some people may whine about the daylight or 3/4 inch provisions, the rule book makes a blanket statement that ALL inside waist band holsters are approved. They seem to be trying to make the rules adhere to the philosophy on which they founded this GAME. Of course, I'll still whine cauz I now have to shoot my almost-43-ounce P226ST .357 in ESP against C&L bunnyfart-loaded 9s... But I can live with that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 (edited) Not knowing much of the IDPA equipment rules, are you allowed to machine holes/grooves, etc. in the slide (i.e. like EGW, Brazos and Bedell do)? If so, problem solved! If not, hmmm....I suppose I could use some rather wide serrations at the front and rear of the side...Hmmm.... Rich ETA: At least 2 guys got FTDRs for being overweight.Kind of personal don't ya think! Of course, I'll still whine cauz I now have to shoot my almost-43-ounce P226ST .357 in ESP against C&L bunnyfart-loaded 9s... But I can live with that... I have no idea what this means other than I think you shoot a Sig in ESP. ETA2: Okay. I'm guessing that you're shooting a SIG P226ST in ESP against downloaded Cocked and Locked 9mm's. Wow...talk about yada, yada, yada. Edited October 10, 2006 by uscbigdawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted October 10, 2006 Author Share Posted October 10, 2006 Not until you can go from state match to state match across the country and get the same calls from different groups of SO's. I couldn't agree more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Not knowing much of the IDPA equipment rules, are you allowed to machine holes/grooves, etc. in the slide (i.e. like EGW, Brazos and Bedell do)? If so, problem solved! No holes......... but you can tri top and serrate (al la Lexor) your slide, coupled with some neeto cocking serrations, a few flute cuts on this and that a and BLAMMO! you have got a speedy slide. Flute the barrel, cut back the long wide dust cover, toss in a FLGR lightened steel mainspring housing and add on a tricked out, just fits in the box magwell and your at the magic 43 oz. Gentlemen "START YOUR ENGINES!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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