Scoring And Pasting Ahead Of The Shooter...

[Flexmoney]

9.6.1 After the Range Officer has declared “Range is Clear”, the competitor or their delegate will be allowed to accompany the official responsible for scoring to verify the scoring.

9.6.2 The Range Official responsible for a course of fire may stipulate that the scoring process will begin while a competitor is actually completing a course of fire. In such cases, the competitor’s delegate must be entitled to accompany the official responsible for scoring in order to verify the scoring. Competitors must be advised of this procedure during the squad briefing.

OK...this one is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. It's not that I don't trust the RO's to score (although we all make mistakes). I actually want to see where my hits were on the target. I want to verify that I am calling the shots correctly...as well as make sure I (as a shooter) get to agree with the call.

So, I am looking at the videos of the Limited SS shooting their last stage at the Nationals (on Julie Goloski's website) and I see that the RO is going along...by himself...scoring targets.

What's up with that?

[BSeevers]

Pretty much every big match I have shot this year some stages did that. I don't like it because, What if I am an orphan on a unfamilar squad? With all the intense shooters I am going to ask a stranger to be my delegate????

[3 gun]

I'm usually not to worried about when my targets are scored. I just ask them to wait on a close call/miss, if there are any. It could be that shooter felt the same way about the scoring on that stage. As I move up thru the classes I may start to look harder at my targets but right now I'm happy with a quick look as I walk back thru the stage picking up mags. I will agree that the RO's could be a bit more consistent on how they handle each shooter in the squad. Sometimes it "seems" that the higher classed shooters get more of a chance to follow the scoring. Of course it could be that attention to detail that helped get them into the higher classes.

[Tom Mainus]

I just had this happen to me at the Nationals. Stage 14 on top of the hill. I get done shooting, kind of trashed the stage so I was pissed, Ok I was really pissed off. Head not thinking right so I start picking up my moons, not even listening for the scores, much less following the RO like I should have, I know better. They come back and I have a mike on my score card, I say WTF and refuse to sign it. They call Troy up and he tells me it is my responsibility to follow the RO. He says you can sign it or not, it is going to count regardless. My fault completely, I sign it and try to move on.

In my experience in matches both club level and major(this was my 4th nat's) i have yet to have an RO that would paste a mike before letting a shooter see it. Fast forward to stage 16. There we are getting our walk through for the stage and the RO's tell us as part of the walk through that they will be scoring targets while we are shooting. But then they say that they will not tape any targets if there is an issue. That is how it should be.

Tom

[Liota]

This is the way we handled long stages at the Texas State 3-Gun. If the stage was going to take a long time to score, we advised that scoring would take place while the competitor was shooting. If the competitor wanted a delegate, they should so designate prior to the start of their run through the COF. Competitors were also briefed that if they did not designate a delegate, then they would have no recourse with regard to scoring on that portion of the stage. I had not one complaint.

Scoring while the competitor is shooting at local matches should not be normal operational procedure, but when it does happen, tapers need to be briefed not to tape targets with misses or questionable hits until the competitor/designate and other RO have seen the target.

Just a couple of thoughts,

Liota

[Thomas Moore]

i don't like it either flex, i wish they would get rid of that process, besides i don't think it saves that much time anyway.

i forgot which big match it was but i was the delegate for a top shooter so i wanted to make sure his hits reflected his score. the first six targets were scored before the shooter was finished with the stage. as i follow the (rookie) ro i see him writing down the scores, however, he isn't calling them out loud so i ask to see the score sheet and you would have thought i was trying to start WWIII. this guy says to me "don't talk to me i'm scoring". now the blood pressure has shot up ten fold and i get the cro, rm and the md involved. well after 15 minutes of heavy discussion the rook apologized to me because the delegate has the right to see what he is writing down if they're not going to call them out.

[Bigbadaboom]

I was D.Q.ed once after the match was over!!!!! because they decided to paste as we shot and one of the targets that they scored and pasted WHILE I WAS STILL SHOOTING was scored Alpha, Mike. I went to the match director and told him about it and he told me to "Get over it. We're trying to get done because it's starting to rain. It's a local match. It's not like it's the Nationals or something." I informed him of how pissed I was and told him that I wouldn't be shooting at that club again. After I got home and the scores were e-mailed I saw that I had been D.Q.ed. I called the M.D. and asked him about it and he said that he considered my arguing "Unsportsman like conduct". I informed him that the match had already ended and you can't D.Q. someone after the match is over to which he replied "I'm the M.D. and club president and I can do whatever I wish."

Unless I have a deligate "DO NOT" paste a target while I am shooting unless it is scored 2 Alpha.

[bpowe]

i don't like it either flex, i wish they would get rid of that process, besides i don't think it saves that much time anyway.

I don't really like it, but sometimes it is a necessary evil. Consider one minute saved per shooter... 350 shooters, 350/60=almost 6 hours saved for the match, nearly 2 hours per day. It can keep a stage running on time rather than stacking up.

Bill

[BDH]

Personally, I do not like to score targets without the shooter present, but sometimes it is tough to avoid. I used this method at A6 this year, because with all the movers, etc. it was tough to keep the stage running on time. If they were doing this on S14 and S16 at Nationals, I would assume they were doing it for the same reason. Not sure what was happening on S14, but since S16 was right before me I was usually waiting for squads and well aware of all the prop problems/reshoots they were having next door.

Again, not my preference to score like this, but also, no one (shooter or staff) really likes to run behind either. Kind of a necessary evil I'm afraid...

Brian Hanna - CRO S17

[Flexmoney]

Just recalling the past 3 Nationals that I have shot, I've caught a handful of scoring mistakes that were made by the staff (just on my scoring). About half of those were mistakes in my favor, and half against.

On delegates, I've never had the stage briefing actually say they were going to score while the competitor was shooting. I'm glad to hear they included that on Stage 16 at the Nats this year. (as per the rule book)

It is the shooter's responsibility to go follow the RO while scoring, or appoint a delegate to do so, but the shooter needs to have ever opportunity to make that happen.

(BDH, were they really close to running behind schedule...or were you just waiting a bit because your stage was able to turn them a bit quicker?)

[TRNinTX]

A couple of years ago at the FL Open they were scoring as they went along. I was pasting targets and the ARO called the hits wrong on two different shooters. I brought this to the ROs attention before pasting the target. After the second time I did this the RO threatened to DQ me for USC. I really got pissed and asked him how he could DQ a non-shooter (I was there with BJ and just helping his squad). I didn't push it too hard as I didn't want any reprocussions for BJ, but it is ridiculous for someone to point out an obvious mistake and be threatened for doing so.

[mscott]

Slow down people. It seems that everyone is in a big hurry no matter what it is and I'm probably as guilty as anyone. There just seems to be a hurry to get the next guy shooting so we can get to the next stage so we can get done with the match. It's going to take as long as it takes and that is all. Aren't we suppose to be enjoying this game? I like to see my targets as much as the next guy and it really doesn't save any time by pasting them early.

[tightloop]

If you cannot wait to paste the targets till after the shooter is finished and ready to review his shooting, and do that same thing with each shooter at the match, then you have a round count that is too high...or too many stages, or both..

Every shooter deserves the right and priviledge of personally witnessing the scoring and taping of his targets...all of them, after he is finished shooting...each shooter deserves this courtesy, regardless of circumstances..

[Wakal]

If you cannot wait to paste the targets till after the shooter is finished and ready to review his shooting, and do that same thing with each shooter at the match, then you have a round count that is too high...or too many stages, or both..

I disagree. If you have a long stage, as Liota commented on earlier, there isn't time to get all the shooters through if some shooters want to throw a hissy fit instead of oh, I don't know, following the rules exactly as written. And no, no one in this thread has that "hissy fit" comment directed at them

By "long stage" I mean 100-200 yard three-gun stages, such as a 30-round dark house followed by a 30-round multi-position rifle stage...just off the top of my head, of course.

I've RO'ed quite a few stages over the years that required direct application of the rule in question. And I'm reasonably sure that some of the stages would still be 'in progress' if that rule wasn't followed

But it sounds like some of the situations called out in this thread are the direct result of, gasp, the rule NOT being followed

Alex

[mactiger]

A couple of points to clarify:

1) Stage 16 CRO did mention that he would begin scoring as the competitor moved through the course of fire. This stage was fairly labor intensive, so the crew felt that this step was necessary to keep them running on time. It's not a problem to ask someone from the squad to be the "delegate" for each competitor as they shoot, and this stage did not paste any misses or close hits or penalty hits until the competitor could see them. In long, time consuming courses, scoring "ahead" is an acceptable practice and works well in 99% of the cases I've seen, as long as a delegate takes a look at the targets, or the competitor is allowed to see other-than-normal hits. This is how this stage was run.

2) Stage 14 was not scoring ahead of the competitor at all; it wasn't possible It's the competitor's responsibility to keep up with the scoring and see his hits, misses, penalties, etc. Or, he can delegate someone to do this while he gathers mags, brass, etc. It is not the responsibility of the RO's to call the competitor to come look at a target if he or his delegate is not following along.

I've had to explain this to a few competitors each year. They're your targets--go take a look at them and get one of your buddies to pick up your stuff. The range crews have a schedule to keep, and sometimes it's necessary to hustle up a bit to keep it. Because we stayed on schedule, there was less sitting around doing nothing and more shooting at this match than I've seen in many years. We also tried to cut down the number of days that competitors had to be there--in answer to complaints and comments about the cost of attending. To do that, you need tigher scheduling and quicker turnaround on each stage. We achieved that goal this year.

Troy

[BDH]

On delegates, I've never had the stage briefing actually say they were going to score while the competitor was shooting.

(BDH, were they really close to running behind schedule...or were you just waiting a bit because your stage was able to turn them a bit quicker?)

First, it absolutely should be in the walkthru (and was at A6)...

Second, it was a combination. Once I got my stage up and running, we could easily clear our squads on time, and have time to take a break. However, S16 was absolutely running behind. Very experienced crew so that wasn't the issue. Just a tough stage with lots of things that could get screwed up. I was giving some grief (just in fun) to David Hyden (CRO) about how slow they were, and when he told me how hard they were struggling to try and stay on time, the number of reshoots, etc., I knew it was going to be a problem. In fact, at least one of the days they worked straight thru lunch trying to catch up....

I was pasting targets and the ARO called the hits wrong on two different shooters. I brought this to the ROs attention before pasting the target. After the second time I did this the RO threatened to DQ me for USC.

Tim, that 'really' sucks. I've made my share of errors, and usually say 'Thank You' to a competitor that points out an error. Also, I can understand why you may have been hesitant to push the issue at the match, but I 'think' that after the match, I would have reported this one either to the RM, the MD, or to John Amidon, so some coaching could be provided...

and it really doesn't save any time by pasting them early.

As Wakal already pointed out, it absolutely DOES save time on the right stage. My stage at A6 was 32 rounds, but more importantly, it was in their shoot house (four or five 'rooms' with walls made of black visqueen). We finished at the far end of the house, and by the time I had called Range Is Clear, we usually had everything on the front of the stage, and everything inside the house already scored, which just left us with the back targets to score. I'm not sure exactly how much time we saved per shooter, but we did save time significant amounts of time (and I still could not keep the stage on schedule with all the props we had to reset, and the fact that making absolutely sure the stage was clear took extra time because of the rooms). Also, remember I started my other post by saying that I do NOT like scoring like this. I really do try to avoid it at all costs, but sometimes, you just gotta do what you gotta do....

[tightloop]

Wakal

Then add a check box on the score sheet that says YOU don;t mind them pasting while you are still shooting...but allow the rest of the competitors to witness the scoring and taping..if they want to.

and again, it is perspective, but if you can't get it scored, taped, and reset and not fall behind when operating with a competent staff, the stage is too complicated, with too many props, or round count is too high..

Everyone likes to shoot a stage or two with Hollywood type props, lots of targets and lots of rounds, but those kind of stages should be part of a mix that keep things moving along without causing a stoppage or massive bottleneck...

[Wakal]

Flex, you Da Man and all, but your suggestion just doesn't make sense. The name of the game is consistancy (otherwise we would be playing IDPA, but that is another thread ). You have to treat each shooter the same on each stage, or else there is chaos and, well, you get guys DQ'ed the day after they are done shooting the match. Or so I have heard

As Mac called it, the walk-through (which should be exactly the same for each squad) involked 9.6.2. As each competitor must be allowed the same treatment, granting "special favors" in contradication of the walk-through (and the rule) should not be allowed in the interest of a level playing field.

Speaking as the match director of state-level matches, few things get competitors riled up faster than uneven treatment...or heavily backed-up stages.

Fair, even-handed treatment under the rules and a smooth running match. I'd pay to shoot that. Heck, I do

A

[Flexmoney]

Flex, you Da Man and all, but your suggestion just doesn't make sense.

Alex,

Did you bump your head? I don't recall making any suggestions on this thread? Now...don't tell me you got me and TightLoop mixed up ??? (He smokes more expensive cigars than I do.)

[shred]

It's pretty obvious as soon as you start editing match videos wherein the camera is left to run non-stop, that at least 4 minutes out of every five involves scoring and pasting. I don't particularly like scoring and pasting in advance, but I can easily see why it's needed or even nice to have at a match.

[tightloop]

Flex

He's confused...

[Mistral404]

Troy,

I did see any RO at Nationals this year for our squad, that did not allow the shooter to see a Mike or No Shoot. WE always did not paste until the shooter saw their target.

Our squad would even pause if they thought there could be an issue between an A and C. No RO complained about this. But our squad was very very good about get the stage turned around in the least amount of time.

I do not think our squad felt any RO was anything but reasonable.

[AlamoShooter]

Pretty much every big match I have shot this year some stages did that. I don't like it because, What if I am an orphan on a unfamilar squad? With all the intense shooters I am going to ask a stranger to be my delegate????

?HOw ?could you be on a squad with other shooters and have more than 1/2 of them strangers after the first 15 minutes? You come down to Texas for a shoot & we will introduce you to 1/2 the STATE in first day.

The clubs I have shot with normaly has more than two extra shooters looking over the target if a miss is called. The thing I hate is the lack of tape, like on a no shoot, I may have gotten a no shoot I did not hit & I may have hit a no shoot that I did not get scored off for. I did not like each just as bad.

[Flexmoney]

Forget the Mikes and the No-shoots for a minute.

Say were are at the first day of the Nationals. I'm a Grand Master shooter, looking to make the Top 16, you are a C-class shooter looking to have a good time shooting. We just meet.

If you happen to be handy and serve as the scoring delegate for my run, would you correct the RO that just called two Charlies on my target when I had two Delta hits? Would you even catch that?

[ima45dv8]

Forget the Mikes and the No-shoots for a minute.

Say were are at the first day of the Nationals. I'm a Grand Master shooter, looking to make the Top 16, you are a C-class shooter looking to have a good time shooting. We just meet.

If you happen to be handy and serve as the scoring delegate for my run, would you correct the RO that just called two Charlies on my target when I had two Delta hits? Would you even catch that?

Kyle, when we met at the nationals 2 years ago you were a GM and I was a C class shooter. And the answers to your questions are "Yes I would", and "Yes I would if a pretty girl didn't pass between me and your target just at the moment someone decided to score it incorrectly". Like a lot of people here I've RO'd too many matches, including State and Area events, to be intimidated about correcting a bad call. I suspect most of us would probably call it even if we weren't assigned as someone's delegate.

I've met very few RO's who wouldn't appreciate the help in identifying a bad scoring call. The very few I have met that would be annoyed by someone correcting them, well. . . . . .they don't count for much in my world and their feelings are of little consequence.

I'm in the camp that thinks it's OK to score behind the shooter as long as they are given a chance to inspect anything that is questionable, or detrimental to their score.

Edited September 19, 2006 by ima45dv8