How Do You Catch A Shooter Sandbaggin'

[ima45dv8]

I have seen this from the same person more than once and everyone knows what the person is doing.

Neal in AZ

You know who you are talking about. I don't (and don't care to).

But...from my experience and the shooters that I have seen, there is a great chance they are simply choking on the "dreaded classifier" stage.

Ahhhhh, you've seen me shoot!

[Paul B]

You know who you are talking about. I don't (and don't care to).

But...from my experience and the shooters that I have seen, there is a great chance they are simply choking on the "dreaded classifier" stage.

My picture is next to this in the manual. I have never tried to tank a classifier in my life, but I crash and burn on them constantly. From an outside perspective I probably look like I'm sandbagging as I have even won matches while blowing the classifier. There is something that just makes me freeze up when I shoot them. Don't know if it is boredome (because they are usually not very interesting stages) or a hero or zero approach, but I just visibly tighten up and do all the stupid things like jerk the trigger, forget to reload, etc.

I really think there are very few true sandbaggers, but there are a lot of us who just try too hard.

[moverfive]

....and then there are just those shooters that cannot shoot a classifier to save their life. I know, I was one of them (and still am to some degree). Every classification I got through A class came as a result of a major match and not the classifiers.

While we will always call someone that shoots above their classifier percentage a 'sandbagger,' just know that 90% of those folks are not really sandbagging. At least from my experience, only a small percentage of folks actually do.

I am just saying that in case some folks get the idea this is a widespread problem. It isn't. There are just a lot of shooters whose skills are improving much faster than the classification system can keep up.

[Intel6]

I have seen this from the same person more than once and everyone knows what the person is doing.

Neal in AZ

You know who you are talking about. I don't (and don't care to).

But...from my experience and the shooters that I have seen, there is a great chance they are simply choking on the "dreaded classifier" stage.

I suppoose there is a chance of me being wrong but I think in this case it is exactly what it looks like. This person is an excellent shooter and it is common knowledge what this person is doing. I didn't believe it until I had heard it from multiple people and went back and checked some past results and they were all the same.

We have Area 2 coming up in Nov and I expect to see an awesome showing from the person then.

Neal in AZ

[Ron Ankeny]

How to fix it, or at least reduce the rancor?

There is another fix besides eliminating prize tables, eliminate the classification system.

As for all of the speculation as to why a person's scores in a big match doesn't match their classification, well there can be a host of reasons for that. Frankly, I really get tired of the grandbagger nonsense. Face it, anyone that dry fires a lot with emphasis on "classifier skills" and also live fires a lot with emphasis on "classifier skills", to the exclusion of "real match skills" (movement, setting up, etc.), should have a classification above their performance at matches consisting of long "field" courses. Similar conditions can exist for guys who shoot at a level above their classification.

[Mistral404]

I watched a guy who is probably a high A open shooter recently shooting in Limited as a B. He smoked most of the A and some Master class shooters.

His deal is that he hardly shoots classifiers in B Limited and shoots Open all the time.

So his performance is at a high A level even though he is classified as a B.

He is not intentionally shooter in a lower class, he is there because of the rules.

Another shooter I know intentionally bags the classifiers to remain in C even though he is shooting at the Master level. He is a true sandbagger and d#$%khead.

I do not have a solution to this problem, it bugs the heck out of me because alot of D, C, and B shooters would like the recognization of accomplishment but are being denied it because of 'sandbagging.'

Heck sometimes I wish we could invoke the dreaded IDPA "failure to do right" or "unsportsmanlike conduct" clauses.

[MattBurkett]

The classification system is rife with problems.

1. Sandbagging - earning a prize by cheating the division your shooting.

Interesting issue - at nearly all major matches the classes are won by someone shooting way outside of the skill level of the class for whatever reason.

2. There are no checks built into the system for sandbagging or grandbagging.

Thread Drift :oN:

Do I love the following!

"I'm not willing to finance the M/GM's prize table".

Let me get this right, people that win should get the same prizes as everyone else? WTF - what the h*ll is the point in working so hard at winning then!

This is one very unique sport that the average guy/gal can shoot the same match and sometimes in the same squad as the big boys/girls. That is one of the things I love about the sport is that I get shoot with and help out everyone I get a chance to at the matches.

Thread Drift :off:

:-)

[EricW]

People are worried about sandbagging because they aren't practicing enough.

[Shawn Knight]

I know I don't practice enough.

[jasmap]

I have seen this from the same person more than once and everyone knows what the person is doing.

Neal in AZ

You know who you are talking about. I don't (and don't care to).

But...from my experience and the shooters that I have seen, there is a great chance they are simply choking on the "dreaded classifier" stage.

I suppoose there is a chance of me being wrong but I think in this case it is exactly what it looks like. This person is an excellent shooter and it is common knowledge what this person is doing. I didn't believe it until I had heard it from multiple people and went back and checked some past results and they were all the same.

We have Area 2 coming up in Nov and I expect to see an awesome showing from the person then.

Neal in AZ

Neal,

If you're talking about a certain shooter at Pima then I think I know who you are talking about. You're right.

[Merlin Orr]

The classification system is rife with problems.

Do I love the following!

"I'm not willing to finance the M/GM's prize table".

Let me get this right, people that win should get the same prizes as everyone else? WTF - what the h*ll is the point in working so hard at winning then!

:-)

Uhhh. Maybe because you love shooting? I want to hear you say that the reason you are who you are and where you are is because of the rewards on prize tables - or any monetary or "real" reward for that matter....

[MattBurkett]

Merlin,

Do the rewards from a prize table make a difference? Heck yes they did! You can win and dedicate your life to something, but, you still have to pay the bills. Back in the early 90's I sold my prize off of the table at the Norco match to pay for the gas to get back to AZ. You want to learn how to shoot under pressure? Think about not getting home if you don't sell what you get off the table.

Here is another situation that happened and I have NEVER shot the area 8 again. Ended up 3 OAL and got a USPSA t-shirt.. 5th D got $75 cash. Think that is right? (Funny side note: for those that know Jamie Craig - I was so mad that HE told me to calm down and that I had better go! Now that is funny!)

Prize tables aren't everything but they do help pay for the expenses when traveling all over the place which is why I don't travel to many USPSA handgun matches anymore. This is also one of the reasons for switching over to 3 gun! (first of all it is more shooting with more guns - how can that be bad?!?) They still have real prize tables and are order of finish. Guess what? All the three gun majors are FULL with out a classification system and pay out by heads up. Hmm. Kind of strange isn't it?

[moverfive]

Merlin,

Do the rewards from a prize table make a difference? Heck yes they did! You can win and dedicate your life to something, but, you still have to pay the bills. Back in the early 90's I sold my prize off of the table at the Norco match to pay for the gas to get back to AZ. You want to learn how to shoot under pressure? Think about not getting home if you don't sell what you get off the table.

Here is another situation that happened and I have NEVER shot the area 8 again. Ended up 3 OAL and got a USPSA t-shirt.. 5th D got $75 cash. Think that is right? (Funny side note: for those that know Jamie Craig - I was so mad that HE told me to calm down and that I had better go! Now that is funny!)

Prize tables aren't everything but they do help pay for the expenses when traveling all over the place which is why I don't travel to many USPSA handgun matches anymore. This is also one of the reasons for switching over to 3 gun! (first of all it is more shooting with more guns - how can that be bad?!?) They still have real prize tables and are order of finish. Guess what? All the three gun majors are FULL with out a classification system and pay out by heads up. Hmm. Kind of strange isn't it?

I so agree with what you are saying and also I so disagree with what you are saying.

Do prize tables make a difference - Beyond "heck yes." Should the winner of D Class walk home with more than what the 3rd overall person did - a possible "heck yes" there too.

Unfortunately this sport isn't a full time professional event, like the PGA. With the exception of a tiny number of people, shooting this sport is not their job. And even considering the number of "top" shooters, there typically aren't enough of them to even field a legitimate major match, much less fund the match. So we need to recognize their accomplishments.

When I was shooting regularly, I typically came home with enough prize money/stuff to pay for the entire match (entry fee, hotel, and etc.) or make the cost very minimal. Would I like for prizes to be awarded by overall finish - HECK YES.

But I also remember when I was a B class shooter. While I may not have been competing for the top of the ranks at that time, the time spent and the level of dedication it took for me to compete at that level was just as intense. If I won my class - why is my victory considered second rate to a guy that lost in their class?

Until this sport receives the level of sponsorship that eliminates the need to have the 'ordinary Joe's' fee to pay for the match, the winner of each category/class should be rewarded above those that didn't win.

With that being said - local clubs need to take an aggressive stance on known sandbaggers. I know of 'clerical errors' made when submitting scores. While sandbaggers may be "harmless" at your local club level, think of the legitimate shooters they will be penalizing when they shoot a big match. Again, I am talking about sandbaggers and not people advancing faster than the classification system can keep up or those that truly suck at classifiers. Most folks here know the difference with those folks therefore know who is really sandbagging.

Again, yes prize tables make a big difference. We don't shoot this game strictly for the prize table (if that was the case we would all be bankrupt) but when we do well in a match, we want the appropriate reward with that accomplishment. But when we allow known sandbaggers to continue until that "big match," they are screwing legitimate people out of what should have been their just reward.

[EricW]

I can stop sandbagging tomorrow by making the classification system used only as a metric to gauge relative skill level. Prizes are split into two, monetarily equal batches. One group is awarded by overall finish. The second group by random draw. Truth be known, manufacturers want their prizes donated throughout field of shooters and not just to the same hot rocks at every match. I won't name names, but I know that one major manufacturer sees more marketing value to Joe Blow "B Class" shooter winning their product as a brand-name GM.

By the same token, I find it embarassing that we've set up this bizzarro-world system where the best performers aren't being rewarded. Hell, even communist-bloc nations gave the best athlete the medal. So, we reward overall finish as well.

There. Now, everyone's a "winner." Wasn't that easy?

[boo radley]

I don't have a lot of major match experience, but in my first one (the '06 Fl Open) I came in 2nd in my class to a shooter who, by any objective standard, should NOT have been there.

It rankled, initially, but I quickly realized the whining -- err, discussing it -- always reflects badly on the sandbaggee, and only sometimes on the sandbagger.

If that is as bad as it gets...life isn't too bad, and even other shooters don't care to hear a long story about coming in "2nd C" or "4th B" or whatever. And, in another major match this year, I was fortunate to win my class/division, but realize there's some truth to the statement that if you do so, you probably shouldn't be there anyway. In fact, the USPSA dB hadn't caught up, yet. That's got to be true all over the place -- what is more dangerous than a B-class L10 shooter?

I like the classification system. The only tweak I'd make is to have shooters be classified at their highest level, across all divisions. Become an "A" Production shooter, and you're an "A" in everything else. Otherwise, it's a good thing, and if it goes away ( which I doubt it would) to handle the 1 true sandbagger out of 100 accused, so would match attendance.

In fact we all DO shoot head-to-head, as far as I know. There's no rule preventing a B shooter from winning HOA in his division, and, to win his class in a State Sectional, for example, he'll have to beat out 25 other B shooters instead of 2 or 3 other "M's" or 10 other "A's".

[tptplayer]

I can stop sandbagging tomorrow by making the classification system used only as a metric to gauge relative skill level. Prizes are split into two, monetarily equal batches. One group is awarded by overall finish. The second group by random draw.

I like this combined with (inexpensive) trophies for class winners. On those occasions that I have won a class trophy, I have appreciated it as a sign that I am improving while completely understanding that it is only a step in the ladder. Keep the money for the big dogs and lucky draws but have some small recognition for those just making progress.

[MattBurkett]

Next thing everyone will get a "hug" at the end of every stage.

[EricW]

Next thing everyone will get a "hug" at the end of every stage.

Not that I don't think you're cuddly, in a non-Montanan sheep rancher way, but I'd prefer my hug from the Ladies squad.

[bayoupirate]

Ron,

Good Point. I hadn't thought about the fact that most classifiers in my area tend to be "speed shoots" and not field courses. Having stengths in the skills that are seen most often in classifiers, and being classified by that skill set, may or may an accurate rating of the shooter as a whole in all skills required to complete a major match of say 12 stages.

I guess that makes it even more unbalanced for those shooters from areas where there is a good balance of classifiers shot.

Matt,

I think the world could use more hugs, especially if HOOTERS is your major match sponsor and they supply a Stage Host at each stage.

[Lycanthrope]

By the same token, I find it embarassing that we've set up this bizzarro-world system where the best performers aren't being rewarded. Hell, even communist-bloc nations gave the best athlete the medal. So, we reward overall finish as well.

I love this sport......but it IS really small in the grand scheme of "sporting events". If we had enough members, we'd have enough GM's to run a "100 Best Guns Nationals" every year and have enough support to get that televised event......or would we? Is the classification system based on the normal curve and are we always cursed with only the top 5% of shooters making GM status and perhaps only 10 really shining? Do enough of us exist to endorse a top ten shootoff?

I think the current system is the lesser of evils. Until we get bigger, and more popular, we need to endorse the sport to the casual shooter and reward participation. People will then watch and fund the rewards that the GM's deserve....but currently if you only had GM's at major matches....you couldn't afford to pay the price of holster wear, let alone gas or ammo.....of the amazing effort it takes to reach that level.

As shooters in a particular culture, I think we sometimes lose perspective. To the general public, I'd wager more people are aware of Olympic Badminton than USPSA. Did football and baseball start out with tremendous payoffs? Of course not, most just played for the love of the game and people loved those games because you could go and play them in your backyard with your friends on any given Sunday...anywhere....and they loved to watch people excel at something they could relate to. You can't do that with USPSA, because there isn't a club in everyone's backyard (let alone one that the general public is aware of), there are misconceptions about guns, the sport carries more responsibility than hitting a baseball ......and.....just shooting a paper target at the range is like just throwing a football across an empty field......it's not playing the game. It's just not the same and means nothing to the "sporting community" or general public.

More than anything, USPSA needs to be public/junior friendly and in this time period...be challenging, safe and fun. If that means that Joe Shmoe who "sandbags" gets a prize and goes back to the mill and gets people interested......well God bless him. The alternative is that we all up the pony up an extra $ and fund.....a commercial....or local public charity/youth/disabled shoots......or offer more free clinics.....or....

So......until the public pays the shoots......the D, C, B and A class shooters will continue to fund it. Don't dis them too hard. How many actually make more money in prizes at the D/C/B class level to pay their own gas, ammo and travel as well?

[Precision40]

If someone is depending on prize tables for their income, they'd be better off on welfare. Just a helpful word of advice.

It really makes me shake my head when I hear of someone complaining that they only won a $175 C-More or 4 pounds of powder or a T-Shirt. Personally, I'd like to see prize tables go away completely or go to a random draw system like IDPA. It cuts down on the B.S. and renders the prize table a non-issue. I come to shoot and have fun, not see how much $$$ I can win.

As far as sandbagging, there is nothing that can be done about it until the classification system is fixed. Is there really that much difference between us finding ways to circumvent a stage and the folks who game the classification system?

[Shawn Knight]

YES!! I want to win something once in a while! How about the GSSF matches where they just give you stuff for showin' up???

[SteveZ]

Personally, I'd like to see prize tables go away completely or go to a random draw system like IDPA. It cuts down on the B.S. and renders the prize table a non-issue. I come to shoot and have fun, not see how much $$$ I can win.

+1000 to that. Shooting is supposed to be something we do for fun!

[shred]

Random draw can have it's own set of problems... just give out stuff at random and everybody gets stuff they don't want. Have a table and it takes all night to walk through it, cause nobody knows where they are.. and that doesn't even include the de-motivating factors Matt goes into.

Like Area 1 this year. TT wins Open but goes to the (really nice) table, what, about last? It was a great match, but if we're going to score the targets and figure out who is better than everybody else, and give away $30,000+ shouldn't they get something out of that?

Prize tables done right are a great way for sponsors and manufacturers to get product into the hands of people that will actually use them. Done wrong, they have a whole lot of problems.

I like the way the Steel Challenge does it (not that's easy to copy)-- the top guys can take some cash, so they don't have to resell something, there's maybe 10-15 more prizes that have a significantly higher retail value than the rest, then it's all pretty much bags of stuff in the $400-$500 range-- some are more desireable than others, but it's not like 50th place gets twice the stuff as 100th place and it's easy to pick a bag with stuff you want in it.

[MattBurkett]

I think the world could use more hugs, especially if HOOTERS is your major match sponsor and they supply a Stage Host at each stage.

NOW YOUR TALKING! I like that idea!

------

Sorry to point out the following but the logic seems somewhat flawed. Damn do I wish we could just go back to heads up overall competitions.

I would have no problems with the distribution of prizes into the top 3 or 5 of the classes - IF the classification system was VALID and the people that win the classes ACTUALLY SHOULD BE IN THEM.

So let me get this right:

1. We seem to have determined that you can't stop sandbagging.

2. Some here want to reward based on class performance.

HUH?