What Do You Think Of The Idpa Rules?

[SRT Driver]

QUOTE(SRT Driver @ Sep 1 2006, 05:25 PM)

IDPA is fun but some of the "rules" are rediculous.

I agree if you haven't spent much time actually carrying a gun or put much thought into defensive shooting.

According to Ken Hackthorn during a conversation I had with him years ago ('98..I think) apparently I have not since I consider any "sport" that records a score and time as just that..a game. Even some "martial arts" have about as much use on the street as a pogo stick.

Defensive shooting..what's that?

1. Putting an empty mag in your pocket!!!??? ..if it has round(s) left in it, fine. Leave

the fragile, gold plated mags at home.

Speed reloads are penalties for counting rounds. On the street they just don't happen. It's a simple concept and has been explained a zillion times. If you don't "get it" maybe IDPA isn't your game.

Yup, you are right..I don't get it especially when a course description says 2 to the body, one to the head and can recieve a FTN penalties. If I shoot three to the body and one to the head, I'm dumping rounds. I guess I'll stop counting.

2. Stop the holster and gear race. If you can cover it up with a vest/shirt and it doesn't

stick out 4 ft..let it be. Don't ask me to "look for light."

Uh, the new rules do stop the gear race. Lines had to be drawn because people were pushing past what is practical and concealable. Have a better criteria? Let's hear it.

How so? Don't tell me to look and see how much light is visable through the belt loops and tell me that an Uncle Mike holster is less concealable than a Bladetech or a Hellweg. I have a better idea, as long as it is not a Ghost holster or an 012 and you could wear it all day..use it.

3. Concealment vests ..do you really wear one out in public? Use a shirt..with sleeves.

Read the book. There is no rule requiring the use of a vest. People do wear vests, I wear one all the time. Even a photo vest now and then. Guess you never went to a match that looked like a Luau. Photo vests just happen to be the current fashion. Kind of like STI shirts at USPSA matches.

Uh... read the book(s) a million times since '97

Guess you never went to a match that looked like a Luau.

There you go..We have some common ground. But sewing weights etc makes it a "competition only garment" with a FTDR as the penalty. Maybe that has changed and if you do it on the street it's ok. But I know nothing about that.

4. SO's and the FTF (failure to fail) penalty. So's that spend more time trying to tack

on penalties.."he must have done something wrong to shoot that fast/well."

SO's are taught to give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter. It's in the book. We don't have overlays blah blah blah. Guess you didn't read that part of the book.

Nope, didn't read that part either.

Well, USPSA is a sport that REQUIRES gaming each stage. If you don't rehearse a stage a few times at an USPSA match the rest of the shooters will look at you like you have 10 heads.

Yup, but I look over my shoulder on the street. Is that considered "gaming"? If you walk down the street and are not aware of the situation, that is your problem.

I guess you also don't carry a gun day to day.

Nope. Can't carry a gun in my state. That's why I look over my shoulder.

[nipplehead]

I would abide with every rule in the book...but if they cannot show me the rule...tough beans...that is the problem I have with their rules...I am hopeful that it has changed for the better since I stopped shooting it, but I still read the arguments about the same things from shooters who participate now...

TL they got a rule for the above...Failure to do right Thats were they devert when confusion sets in . How goofy is that...Lets judge a shooters intentions and thoughts and deal penaties for mindset or some may call it creativity. There is no room for creativty in IDPA. What a shame it could have been a good game. Too bad it tries so hard to be unlike IPSC that it stubbles all over itself.

Edited September 2, 2006 by nipplehead

[Singlestack Wonder]

The IDPA rulebook is not perfect BUT take alook at the USPSA Rules forum. USPSA constantly changes the rules on a whim for shooters and manufacturers. When I read this forum, I see a lot of people who don't shoot IDPA complaining about the rules. When I look at the USPSA Rule forum, I see a lot of people questioning the rules as well as constantly asking for a "Ruling" from John Amidon. If the USPSA rules are so clear cut, why the confusion?

In the end, IDPA and USPSA are two completely different sports with different rules. Each offers their own caveats.

Shoot both and enjoy!

[Duane Thomas]

I should offer $1K reward for the first person to document the use of tactical vests and OWB kydex holsters used for "real". But that's the gear used by most winners..

I know guys working DOD and DOS jobs that shoot IDPA and wear what kydex OWB and 5.11 vests on the job. If you ever shoot some big matches in the Southeast you'll see them.

I'll get a pic of my PD bud who was wearing a bladetech and 5.11 vest today and shoots IDPA occassionally with us. That should be worth a grand.

I wear a Concealed Carry Clothiers vest, a Blade-Tech Standard Belt Holster and double mag pouch, and a Glock 34 every day. Does that win me the 1K?

3. Concealment vests ..do you really wear one out in public?

See above.

Guess you never went to a match that looked like a Luau.

I did! One of our local SOs got to design his own match, I mean every stage, and he was a serious Hawaiian shirt fan. He actually offered a 3 second reduction in score to anyone who showed up wearing a Hawaiian shirt. And yes, I did take advantage of the "Hawaiian shirt factor."

[revchuck]

Guess you never went to a match that looked like a Luau.

And you say that as if it were a bad thing.

A friend has a "Dogs Playing Poker" shirt that he has used for a cover garment. If you're a middle-aged guy (like me) in the South, those square bottom shirts make you look like all the other middle-aged guys.

As for vests - I got my 5.11 while deployed in Afghanistan, working a civilian clothes job. Had to sew up the holes in the mag pockets from where the mags wore through. When it's cool enough, I wear it here with matching khaki slacks.

[COF]

The IDPA rulebook is not perfect BUT take alook at the USPSA Rules forum. USPSA constantly changes the rules on a whim for shooters and manufacturers. When I read this forum, I see a lot of people who don't shoot IDPA complaining about the rules. When I look at the USPSA Rule forum, I see a lot of people questioning the rules as well as constantly asking for a "Ruling" from John Amidon. If the USPSA rules are so clear cut, why the confusion?

In the end, IDPA and USPSA are two completely different sports with different rules. Each offers their own caveats.

Shoot both and enjoy!

Can I get an AMEN!

Jerry

shoots both

works both

[PJONES5]

Can I get an AMEN!

Jerry

shoots both

works both

AMEN BROTHER

PAT

[Joe D]

If you don't get a FTDR every once in a while you are not pushing the rules enough.

[AikiDale]

I voted to strictly follow the rules. I was happy to see that burning the book, which I nearly voted for, has nearly as many votes. I am happy to play the game by the rules, stupid as they may be. I've gotten penalized for reloading while running for cover and dropping a partially loaded mag. My favorite penalty was for getting three head shots when 2 to the body and one to the head was called for. IDPA heads are not part of the body apparently.

I'm okay with IDPA wanting to emphasize what the rules maker(s) think is more practical, tactical or fanatical. The rules that have nothing to do with safety or practicality but rather are just anti-USPSA rules are just plain stupid and irritating. Of course, offensive pass interference is just as irritating, but them's the rules.

[tightloop]

Duane and I will share the 1K, as I too wear a Bladetech belt holster and my vest all day every day with my Commander....

If you get a rep of receiving the FTDR, the RO's will really dog you...so much for pushing the envelope...LOL Been there, done that...

[sgtis108]

I guess my biggest issue with IDPA is that the rules are seldomly followed, in my expirence. My first local match I was told to just shoot, if I ever made it to sharpshooter then they would start enforcing the rules more. They said it was "A freindly match" My first classifier put me at EX so I got a LGB. After studing it a while I realized that most of the COF's were not legal. I went to 3 state matches. Only some of there courses were legal.

I was in the squad with a current national champion at a state match and I heard him tell another pro shooter that not one cof was legal at the match.

I don't think you can legislate good tactics or decisions or carry gear. I think it is silly to try.

It was the hardcore, this is training, range nazi's that pushed me to look for somthing new. Most of the guys that gave me the gamer name have no idea that I'm a LEO firearms instructor. I carry a gun ALL the time.

SGT

[kdmoore]

I wear a Concealed Carry Clothiers vest, a Blade-Tech Standard Belt Holster and double mag pouch, and a Glock 34 every day. Does that win me the 1K?

Ding Ding Ding. My bluff's been called? not at all, In the spirit of my thread, I will send you (and RevChuck and TL) 1000 dollars. I prefer paypal. but I'm not sure they'll let me send .... Monopoly money.

That brings to 3 the number of shooters using the vests and OWB kydex for daily carry (that I know about).

BTW, I thought Mayo was trolling too, but this has turned out to be an interesting discussion.

Aiki, Around here "body shots" include the head. If the course uses the term "center of mass" then the head is a miss. And we try to make sure to explain it to the shooters. I'd like to see that become a more common practice.

Edited September 2, 2006 by kdmoore

[tightloop]

Unless you are specifically shooting a Mozambique, the head is the same point value as the center of mass...should be no penalty...but then you never know..

and yes, many of the COF in the larger matches are sometimes questionable..but by that time, it is too late..you just have to shoot them...

[Singlestack Wonder]

"My favorite penalty was for getting three head shots when 2 to the body and one to the head was called for. IDPA heads are not part of the body apparently."

Years ago, one of the popular stages in IPSC was the "Mozambique Drill". I believe it was a Virgina Count stage. It consisted of three targets with three strings. Each string consisted of drawing and firing two shots to the body and one to the head. If the head had more than one hit and the body had less than two, misses and procedurals applied. It appears that even in USPSA, at times, the head is not considered a body shot.

[tightloop]

The drill you speak of is the first string of stage 1 of the IDPA classifier...and in IPSC, it was drill specific ..only if the drill called for 2 bodies and one head were you penalized for deviation...any other time, it was three A's for three center heads.

[AikiDale]

I wear a Concealed Carry Clothiers vest, a Blade-Tech Standard Belt Holster and double mag pouch, and a Glock 34 every day. Does that win me the 1K?

Ding Ding Ding. My bluff's been called? not at all, In the spirit of my thread, I will send you (and RevChuck and TL) 1000 dollars. I prefer paypal. but I'm not sure they'll let me send .... Monopoly money.

That brings to 3 the number of shooters using the vests and OWB kydex for daily carry (that I know about).

BTW, I thought Mayo was trolling too, but this has turned out to be an interesting discussion.

Aiki, Around here "body shots" include the head. If the course uses the term "center of mass" then the head is a miss. And we try to make sure to explain it to the shooters. I'd like to see that become a more common practice.

Make it 4. I almost always carry OWB. Either a belt loop Kydex or a paddle leather. Sometimes with a vest, sometimes with a sport coat. Full size 1911. On special occasions now, but for years when it was the only gun I owned, long before IDPA set me straight that it was impossible, I carried a 6" S&W 629 concealed in an OWB with a vest.

[tightloop]

all right Aiki....Dirty Harry....

[persona non grata]

with IDPA Nat's less than a month away, their are probably some realy successfull IDPA shooters who are on this forum that will stay away from this topic just so they don't cuase no trouble here which in turn might follow them to Nat's. ask this question again after Nat's, especially if some shooter gets DQ'd after the fact, like last year.

[firewalker]

with IDPA Nat's less than a month away, their are probably some realy successfull IDPA shooters who are on this forum that will stay away from this topic just so they don't cuase no trouble here which in turn might follow them to Nat's. ask this question again after Nat's, especially if some shooter gets DQ'd after the fact, like last year.

ok this sounds like trolling

[Mayonaise]

Guess you never went to a match that looked like a Luau.

And you say that as if it were a bad thing.

It's not a bad thing. It made my point. A lot of people carry concealed with a hawaiian shirt. A lot of people use weight or stiffeners in concealment garments that are not "competition only". Of course since he clarified that he lives in a state where concealed carry is not legal it certainly helps explain why IDPA rules don't make sense to him.

BTW I spent the entire day out and about to and from the range with a 5" 1911 in a OWB Alessi DOJ wearing a vest.

I want my cut of the $1K!

Concerning the Mozambique issue, my advice is ask the SO before you push three in the head. Better to know up front how they are scoring the stage/string than to find out after the fact.

Mayo

[00bullitt]

As Mark said.....he was a bit too rigid in his first choice of the poll. I beleive all rules should be followed all the time(how I voted). Exceptions for new shooters should be made when appropriate. Be it as it is.....IDPA is a game. There is someone with a clipboard recording scores and keeping a time of your run. There are rules. They should be followed and are there for a reason. I do not agree with all of them and believe several need to be revised. IDPA tries to simulate the "real world" scenarios of a gunfight. Bottom line is that until the carboard silhouettes on sticks return real lethal fire.....it won't be. Sims training today is the closest form of "real world" that we can get,but yet still so different. The consequence of death is still not there in sims training. The consequence of death changes a lot of variables. I won't go into that any further as I think it sums it up fairly well.

I shoot USPSA and IDPA. I carry a gun(sometimes two) 7 days a week and damn near 24 hours a day. I carry IWB and OWB. I wear untucked Polo shirts and sometimes the "shoot me first vest". It just depends on where I'm going and how I am dressed. I can say that I carry OWB and wear the vest only about 10% of the time. I do wear the vest in IDPA because it gives me a couple tenths of an advantage on a faster draw than drawing from an untucked Polo shirt.It is also modified to allow less printing and more snag resistance on the draw. What can I say......I came to play the game. Just because I shoot a match against the clock and do things for the advantage of time, that I am not a sound tactical thinking individual. Because I am. I came to play the game. When the bullets actually start flying,I guarantee my dynamics will change.

I do know many folks who wear the vest daily and carry OWB. It is fairly common and we all identify each other quickly.

I enjoy USPSA and IDPA. I get alot more penalties in IDPA than USPSA. Those are the rules. Like I said.....I do not agree with them all and believe some revision and clarification is necessary.

I know Mark but he may not know me. He is hardcore about the rules but also knows them better than anyone I know in IDPA. He doesn't enforce them because he thinks they are tactically correct,but because they are the rules that govern IDPA. Enforcing them as they are written keeps the playing field equal. Mark is a very tactically sound individual who enjoys the game and doesn't agree with the rules as they are written either. Bottom line comes down to rules are rules. If you don't want to follow them accept the penalties or find another game that suits you. Both games are excellent skill builders if you choose to play them.

Edited September 3, 2006 by 00bullitt

[freeidaho]

Mark, and 00bullitt;

I like what you are saying and substantially agree.

Everyone;

I carry in a Concealed Carrier Clothier vest, untucked shirt, Carhart canvas shirt over a shirt, leather jacket and other various coats to match the weather. Depends on the weather, and how I need to dress for that day. I generally shoot IDPA in the same gear as the weather dictates with my carry gear. My carry gear happens to be a P14-45, and an IWB homemade holster. So I guess I don't get $1K.

As a general compromise, I believe IDPA rules are pretty good. No sport has a perfect set of rules. If you follow a golf forum, there are rule bashers there too, or just checkout NASCAR for a second, or whaterer sport. Pretty much every sport has those than know better than the ruling body.

I am amazed that so many self appointed experts just know that IDPA rules are poor. However very few of these self appointed experts agree with each other, and many of them don't carry anyway. Mostly these folks just want it their way. That is part of human nature.

Another observation is that some answer rules questions based on what they personally want to do, and others answer rules questions based on having to run matches, and what is best for the sport. Again human nature I suppose.

As a last observation there are some folks that have read and understand Bill's purpose section of the rulebook, and realize the owner of the sport wants it to be about concealed carry and shooting the CsOF challenge as designed, not about disecting the COF so that you can shoot an easier COF than everyone else. Let me say that again. The sport is about improving ones shooting skills, not about improving one ability to range lawyer every stage, and rule. As Matt Burkett has said on the record, "Just ask the SO how he wants the stage shot, then shoot it faster and more accurately than everyone else." Works for me.... unless of course you can't do that, then I guess finding a loop hole in the stage or rules is your only recourse.

Guess I'm a simple guy. Shoot IDPA, 3-Gun, USPSA, man on man, etc., just follow the rules, and the intent of the sport, and don't argue with anyone. Be safe, shoot straight, have fun.... repeat. Life is too short to stress over ones hobby.

Ken Reed

IDPA the sport that many love and others love to hate.

[Singlestack Wonder]

As a last observation there are some folks that have read and understand Bill's purpose section of the rulebook, and realize the owner of the sport wants it to be about concealed carry and shooting the CsOF challenge as designed, not about disecting the COF so that you can shoot an easier COF than everyone else. Let me say that again. The sport is about improving ones shooting skills, not about improving one ability to range lawyer every stage, and rule. As Matt Burkett has said on the record, "Just ask the SO how he wants the stage shot, then shoot it faster and more accurately than everyone else." Works for me.... unless of course you can't do that, then I guess finding a loop hole in the stage or rules is your only recourse.

+10

[sgtis108]

When I see a course of fire I have a pretty good guess what the designer had in mind. So lets say I see a faster way, not easier, faster. But I shoot the cof the way the course designer envisioned. The next guy shoots the faster way. I'm four hours from home, $400 in the red. I may shoot the course the way the designer wants faster than everyone that shoots it as intended, and still loose the stage. I think we should throw away the timer and have judges like Ice Dancing.

[freeidaho]

I thought people stopped using the "but everyone else is doing it" rhetoric about the time they left junior high.

Ken Reed

Edited September 4, 2006 by freeidaho