10 Pts For Thrown Clays In Uspsa. Is It Enough?

[Neil Beverley]

For the 2006 IPSC Rules we added the text below in red:

1.2.1.4 The recommended balance for an IPSC match is a ratio of 3 Short Courses to 2 Medium Courses to 1 Long Course. Where possible, it is further recommended that no single COF in a match represents more than 15% of the total match points available.

Edited August 24, 2006 by Neil Beverley

[EricW]

Why not make thrown clays worth 100 pts each? Then we can have dozens of threads with people whining about all the sporting clays guys coming to 3-gun and stealing everyone's lunch money.

[kurtm]

Eric...SHHHH they might catch on

FWIW long range for a rifle starts around 400 for Iron/500 for low powered optics, and rifle targets don't usually get flung by a flipper, although I might just have to work that into a NON uspsa match...sounds like fun

Edited August 24, 2006 by kurtm

[D.Hayden]

500 yds would be so cool....

[bigbrowndog]

kurt, just make sure you get those rifle flippers...........WIRED.

you don't want a catastrophic failure.

jeez...can we leave yet, i'm tired of practicin'

trapr

[benelli2]

I back Kurt's opinion from page one, flippers have no place in higher level competitions due to the difficulty in calling the hit and the eventual swaying of the match by bad calls we have all seen. They are great fun, I can hit them, but they are not worth the aggrivation and upset they can cause in a match.

jc

trapr- can't leave yet I still need more practice

[reneet]

They're typically not worth the time it takes to load extra rounds. If I've got extras, I might shoot at 1 or 2.

[Neil Beverley]

kurt, just make sure you get those rifle flippers...........WIRED.

you don't want a catastrophic failure.

jeez...can we leave yet, i'm tired of practicin'

trapr

When are you guys flying over? I get there next Wednesday.

[bigbrowndog]

jeff, i thought you wanted to leave early??????

i drove out to the range today to get some practice, and they were having a BBQ and the only bay i could practice on was closed. soooooo....i'm in the house loading in the A/C.

neil, i think all four of us arrive on the first, i hope we all arrive on the first we're all on the same plane.

see you there

trapr

like kurt said and benelli 2 seconded, i also wrote that targets that cannot be verified after the COF is over should not be utilized. nuf sed!!!!

[kurtm]

Neil we leave the first and touch down onthe second. We fly into Kavala around 4:20 P.m. tired and thirsty

[Jim Norman]

For the 2006 IPSC Rules we added the text below in red:

1.2.1.4 The recommended balance for an IPSC match is a ratio of 3 Short Courses to 2 Medium Courses to 1 Long Course. Where possible, it is further recommended that no single COF in a match represents more than 15% of the total match points available.

Neil,

The problem is that the mix as suggested doesn't work.

3 shorts @ 9 rounds = 27 rounds

2 Medium @ 16 rounds = 32 rounds

1 long @ 32 Rounds =32 rounds

Total for the match? 91 Rounds.

Only the short courses are acceptable as not having more than 15% of the available points. At the suggested ration, even the medium courses are 17.58% of the available points.

You can run a 12-stage match to keep to the criteria of 3-2-1, you then get 182 rounds. Still no good, the long courses are 17.58% of the available points.

Triple the match to 18 stages? OK, you make it here at 11.72% for the long course. This addresses the suggested ration of stages and the percentages of points.

Now we have to address the logistics of such a match.

Anyone want to build and run an 18-stage match for a Sunday club match? (Level 1). Who has the equipment or the bays? Not to mention the time, not only for set-up, but also for the shooting and the teardown?

18 stages is at least a 2-day event. Even if you run the squads hot on the short courses. Stack three in a pit; you fill three bays, then 6 mediums, each in a separate bay and the three longs, also in separate bays. A total of 12 bays are required.

The time required to shoot such a match is the next problem.

One squad shooting this match, with 8 people on it will take on average 4 minutes to clear each shooter, 5 minutes for walk-through, 10 minutes between stages. Or a total of 47 minutes for that squad of 8, it doesn't matter how many squads you have, the largest squad on the longest clearance time is what essentially governs the match. So, 47 x 12 =564 minutes or 9 hours and 24 minutes. Start shooting at 0900 finish at 1824, and then put it all away. This is the profile of an IPSC suggested match. Add a couple shooters make it 10 per squad and you really will be shooting by headlights.

All of the above goes to the point that the IPSC ratio does not work. The 6 stage suggested profile makes the long course worth 35.17% of the points!

OK, what is the solution? In order for a 32 round COF not to exceed 15% of the available points you need a 214 round match. Arguably the following works to keep the percentages in order:

3 Long Courses of 32 rounds

5 Medium Courses of 16 rounds and

4 Short Courses of 9 rounds.

Total is only 212 rounds so you are still over a tiny bit, but at least it is close, of course the ration of stages is off, but hey its close. The 3-2-1 just doesn't work.

Of course there is one other partial solution and that is to reduce the maximum number or rounds allowed even further. Not sure we really want to go there. I understand that he 32-16-9 are maximums allowed, but if you insert one 32 round COF in a match the above is the minimum requirements to maintain the ratios.

OK, Rambling ranting mode is now off and I am unpacking my flame suit.

Jim

Modified for additional content and spelling

Edited August 24, 2006 by Jim Norman

[mike.45]

We fly into Kavala around 4:20 P.m. tired and thirsty

We have a large suite, fluffy beds, and lots and lots of cold beer to remedy those jet lag effects !!

[mike_pinto]

And Kurt, with any luck Mikey will stay in HIS bed all night long!! Don't go Mel K on us!! You guys have fun and be safe. Good luck Mikey, but I hope the US guys whoop up on everyone!!

Wish I could go, even to be a shotgun shell porter or something.

The other Mike

[bigbrowndog]

BEER!!!!......just BEER!!!!!

mikey, you disappoint me!!!!!

trapr

[Neil Beverley]

Jim

The Short, Medium and Long Course ratios are USPSA recommended ratios as well. The ratios are a recommendation, as is the 15% max for any single stage. There is no obligation to only run matches in multiples of 6 stages and 8 stage matches are common but in reality I see many different combinations hence why the ratios are only recommended.

There is no obligation to have a 32 round stage as a long course and please note that the max rounds for a SG Short Course is 8 and for a long course there is a restriction to 28 targets so unless you are using slugs, and double tapping, then the max round count also becomes 28 by default.

The figures you have used to try to show that the 15% figure isn't achievable actually supports the argument of the discussion because a 32 round stage is a disproportionate stage for a small match. Certainly for a 6 stage match.

A 12 stage match works easily simply by dropping the 2 long courses to 24 rounds each. With the short courses at 8 rounds and the Medium Courses at 16 rounds you have a perfect balance of the recommended ratios and percentages. Total rounds 160. A decent match. 12 stages is the recommended minimum number of stages for a Level III SG match.

The point being made in the rulebook is to draw attention to what is considered to be ideal ratios for a balanced match.

At the European Shotgun Championships the biggest stage is only 8.9% of the match points.

[kurtm]

I think I would listen to Neil, not only has he been putting on matches for forever, he is also the Main Man for the IPSC rule governing shotgun. Most all of the rules you see in the book came from Neil! He DOES know! KURTM

[George]

I'm with Neil on equitable match design being easily doable within the existing guidlines. I also feel you should never have just one long course in an individual gun tournament. Much better to have each gun have at least one long, medium and short stage. 9 stages is doable on a weekend match if 3-4 are quick and easy to turn. Stack pairs of those on single bays and it takes no longer to get through 8-9 stages than it takes to get through 5-6 longer field courses like a lot of club multigun/long gun matches over here in the USA are designed.

In multigun a single long course could be one with all three guns represented. An 8 round medium distance rifle stage with eight 10 pointers is a pretty good way to juggle disparity out of match design. Put some ten pointers into a short shotgun stage to bring it up to 60 points, you can now run those long field courses without tipping the match weighting cart.

It can be done well and easily. Iwill be designing the multigun match at our club next month in adherence to IPSC/USPSA weighting criteria. I will publish the COF here in a couple weeks for everyones perusal.

I remember Beven mentioning that flattened soda cans work well as a replacement for flying clays. They show the hit/miss when inspected and in most cases the hit can be called when the can flies sideways from the hit. They fly fairly consistently too. My guess is they can still be recycled even with lead pellets in them ;-)

BTW, good luck to everyone going to Greece for the European Shotgun Championships. Extra well wishes for all of Team USA!

[Jim Norman]

Jim

The Short, Medium and Long Course ratios are USPSA recommended ratios as well. The ratios are a recommendation, as is the 15% max for any single stage. There is no obligation to only run matches in multiples of 6 stages and 8 stage matches are common but in reality I see many different combinations hence why the ratios are only recommended.

There is no obligation to have a 32 round stage as a long course and please note that the max rounds for a SG Short Course is 8 and for a long course there is a restriction to 28 targets so unless you are using slugs, and double tapping, then the max round count also becomes 28 by default.

The figures you have used to try to show that the 15% figure isn't achievable actually supports the argument of the discussion because a 32 round stage is a disproportionate stage for a small match. Certainly for a 6 stage match.

A 12 stage match works easily simply by dropping the 2 long courses to 24 rounds each. With the short courses at 8 rounds and the Medium Courses at 16 rounds you have a perfect balance of the recommended ratios and percentages. Total rounds 160. A decent match. 12 stages is the recommended minimum number of stages for a Level III SG match.

The point being made in the rulebook is to draw attention to what is considered to be ideal ratios for a balanced match.

At the European Shotgun Championships the biggest stage is only 8.9% of the match points.

Neil, The following is excepted form the USPSA Pistol Rules on line 2004 book:

1.2.1 General Courses of Fire:

1.2.1.1 “Short Courses” must not require more than 9 rounds to

complete and no more than 2 shooting locations.

1.2.1.2 “Medium Courses” must not require more than 16 rounds to

complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course

design and construction must not require more than 9 scoring

hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor

to eliminate a location or view in the course of fire

by shooting all available targets at an earlier location or

view.

1.2.1.3 “Long Courses” must not require more than 32 rounds to

complete. Course design and construction must not require

more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view,

nor allow a competitor to eliminate a location or view in the

course of fire by shooting all available targets at an earlier

location or view.

1.2.1.4 The recommended balance for an IPSC match is a ratio of

3 Short Courses to 2 Medium Courses to 1 Long Course.

I checked the rules further and Shotgun does have a difference in that a short course only allows for 8 rounds and as you say yo uare limited to 28 targets in a long course. So much for continuity across the rules.

I agree that you can have fewer that the maximum number of rounds, but that said. Using the maximum does not work. A Level One or Club Match holding a 6 stage match cannot have any but the smallest stages at the full allowed round count. Further if one attempts to follow the recommended ratios then only 6, 12, 18, 24 stage matches fit. I suppose one could say that if we have a recomended ratio that cannot be achieved at its lowest common denominator then that recommendation is not valid. Why have a suggested ratio and a mandated maximum round count if it cannot be followed at any reasonable level. The 12 stage match works as you have described it, but the quuestion still follows as to are we talking a single day match? or a multi day match? FOr a one day match this seems to be a pretty massive undertaking.

Our Match this Saturday has 9 stages.

19, 15, 21, 20, 20, 24, 16, 12, 20 rounds. Total 167 rounds Our largest stage, 24 rounds and 135 points (3-10 point flipped birds) is 15.8 %. But as you can see we are no where near following the suggested ratios. I think that we hava good balance in that while our smallest stage is 12 rounds, there is a good balance of speed, accuracy and loading skills. There is some athleticism invloved, but how fast you run will not likely determine the winner. How well you shoot most likely will.

Just a side note, we are building the match on Friday, this is once or twice a year endeavor, not our normal match. We are also re-using the courses with a target change over for our regular pistol match. we will also reduce the number of stages on Sunday to 7 stages. This way we have reduced the work load to a more manageable size.

Jim

[Neil Beverley]

Jim

I know what the USPSA rules say. Not only because I'm a member but also because, as Kurt points out (thanks Kurt), I wrote a great many of these rules, certainly the shotgun rules. The USPSA Shotgun rules were adopted in May 2004 from the IPSC rules with only very minimal changes.

Yes, we strive for continuity across the disciplines but the overiding factor is that we also modify rules to be discipline specific where necessary, for example, and you can call me old fashioned if you like, but I wasn't too keen on adopting the holster rules for SG, even for continuity.

So why the round count difference? It stems from the 9 round loading limit in Standard Division. If we were to allow 9 round Short Courses then you effectively turn these into Virginia Count stages because how many people will want to reload to pick up a miss? By setting the limit to 8 everyone has a spare round and can usually shoot without the fear that a single miss will be very expensive.

You have quoted and have been working on the handgun round count wheras these discussions are about the value of clay targets that are to be shot with a shotgun. Hence why I quoted the SG rules instead.

You have again made the point that the maximum round count doesn't work. Exactly. But nobody is insisting that it has to. There is no requirement to include a stage with the maximum number of rounds and indeed this discussion started because it was correctly pointed out that there can be too much emphasis on a single stage. We have made a recommendation, we have not made it a requirement, that 15% of the match points is the highest proportion of the match for a single stage.

A club can absolutely include a Long Course at 28 or, for a slug stage, 32 rounds, even on a 6 stage match. The rule book certainly does not preclude that. Indeed the rules specifically provide for clubs running matches like that. See 1.1.5.1. Furthermore the rules provide for a club to hold a match of just 2 stages and there is nothing to prevent both of these stages being 32 round stages.

You're finding fault with not existent restrictions and where a problem doesn't exist. The match you describe at your club is perfectly legal so what's the problem? We have simply made a recommendation.

For the record, UK matches are usually 8 to 12 stages for a Level II match and always 12 + stages for a Level III match. They usually run for 2 or sometimes 3 days but are always shot in 1 day by the competitors. The British Open Level III match is usually 15 stages, shot in one day, typically 180 rounds approx.

[Jim Norman]

Neil,

To a certain point I agree with you. I understand the reason that you use for making a short course 8 rounds. It just as easily could have been 10 rounds, which forces a reload or a FTE and a Mike. Also, since we have the option of how to start, you can have a 9 round stage that mandates an empty chamber, or an empty gun. Since we don't have to use the maximum number of rounds allowed, either of these would have eliminated the need to have a difference between pistol and SG counts. I don't see why the 28/32 round count in the SG long course, but I am sure there is a reason.

The discussion strated out with two items, if I remeber correctly, One was the added value required to make a flipped bird worth shooting at. Second, was the effect of the high points against the recomended ratios and mandated maximum round counts.

I suppose that we can agree to disagree on the point that having a suggested ratio for stages and maximum round counts and not being able to achieve them in less than 18 stages.

You have pointed out that the ESC and the British Nationals usually run 18 stages and are shot over a two-three say period. That is all fine and good. I would love to have such a match here. I'd also like to get the time off to be able to run such a match. My point was that at the club level, level 1, where ususally there is limited set-up time, and even more limited shooting and tear down time, that the rules don't fit.

I like to be able to tie things up in neat packages and this doesn't work here.

I applaud your dedication working on the rules. I do understand just how much work that can be.

Jim

[JFD]

Has anyone considered that pigeon flippers might not be a good idea?

The need to change the rules to try and force folks to shoot it seems to indicate that it's a bad/questionable prop/target. Just because someone built it and it looks cool doesn't mean it is or ever was an appropriate prop/target for USPSA.

Just something that came to me while reading this thread....

[kurtm]

Yes, Bigbrowndog, Benelli2 and I sort of said that! and we agree. Fun for a level 1 but NO higher!

[Larry White]

Fun target, but not nessarly a good one. Too dependant on wind speed and sun postion to be the same for all shooters. I sometimes shoot them at local club matches, very seldom on the road.-----Larry

[bigbrowndog]

this bantering back and forth, is giving me a headache, especially when there are more than 5 or 6 lines to read..........i think its time to "lighten up francis"

neil, i look forward to lighter discussions while sitting on the beach, with a drink in our hands.

trapr

[Neil Beverley]

neil, i look forward to lighter discussions while sitting on the beach, with a drink in our hands.

trapr

Definitely the best idea yet...................

Stage 22 is a Comstock Stage consisting of 10 glasses of beer.

Start position: Sitting on Kavala beach.

Scoring: If youre lucky

Penalties: Procedural penalties for spilling beer.

Procedure: On the start signal engage all glasses freestyle, timing stops .... who bl**dy cares when the timing stops. Bring more beer.