Is The Point Series Broken?

[38superman]

"Doctor, you of all people should recognize the dangers of re-opening old wounds" - James T. Kirk

There were changes made by the BOD at the beginning of this year to re-tool the Point Series and I certainly give them an "A" for effort.

Now that we have the bulk of the year behind us perhaps this is a good time to look at where we stand today.

Let me say that I am a fan of the Point Series and have participated in it throughout my short IPSC career.

I am however beginning to feel some disappointment for a several reasons.

First and foremost I am frustrated in the number of matches that have dropped their support.

When I signed up for this I expected more venues to be available.

This year I found that several majors that did participate last year have fallen away.

As a member of Area 6, I shot the Fla Open, Ala Section, and will shoot Tennessee.

All of which are not in the PS this year.

This puts me in the position of shooting a lot more matches and/or travelling further to fulfill the participation requirement.

I just went all the way to Mich. for Targeting Education, primarily to fill the "Other Match"

(which I had expected to get at the Fla Open).

Second, Where is everybody? The small number of participants can't be due to cost ($25).

Why the lack of interest?

Last but not least, lack of uniformity in the scoring.

How can this work when the scoring percentages vary wildly due to the differences in the talent pool between the smaller and larger sectionals?

All this begs the question:

Tinker with it some more? Scrap It?......What now?

Tony

Edited August 8, 2006 by tlshores

[Cameron]

I just hope it gains more participants. This is my first go at PS, and for $25.00, I will do it again. I say leave it be and try to help it grow.

[Matthew_Mink]

The Points Series results have always been buried, almost hidden, that did not help. Changing the format year after year did not help. Changing the format for 06 and then not posting the correct format on the Points Series hidden page did not help.

Point loaded gun at foot, pull trigger.

Point Series was a great concept that was executed poorly. I enjoyed it the first 2 years, then decided not to participate anymore after that.

How to fix it:

Make it more visible, put at least a button on the main page of uspsa.org to direct you to the results.

Bring back cash payout. $25 entry (or higher) and the chance at a grand or so at the end should net a ton of shooters. Also hit up sponsors for gun prizes to the HOA winners.

Make the match schedule include Nationals, 2 Areas, 4 Sectionals/State Level or something like that. That is enough matches to decide a winner. All matches qualify, local match directors have to do nothing but upload the scores to USPSA.

[Cameron]

Good ideas Matt!!!

Please send them directly to BOD. Everybody would like the chance to earn a new gun.

[38superman]

The Points Series results have always been buried, almost hidden, that did not help. Changing the format year after year did not help. Changing the format for 06 and then not posting the correct format on the Points Series hidden page did not help.

Point loaded gun at foot, pull trigger.

Point Series was a great concept that was executed poorly. I enjoyed it the first 2 years, then decided not to participate anymore after that.

How to fix it:

Make it more visible, put at least a button on the main page of uspsa.org to direct you to the results.

Bring back cash payout. $25 entry (or higher) and the chance at a grand or so at the end should net a ton of shooters. Also hit up sponsors for gun prizes to the HOA winners.

Make the match schedule include Nationals, 2 Areas, 4 Sectionals/State Level or something like that. That is enough matches to decide a winner. All matches qualify, local match directors have to do nothing but upload the scores to USPSA.

I think the cash payout was eliminated to lower the entry fee thus encourage participation.

Trying to bring back the cash payout may be going backward.

I do like the idea of hitting up the sponsors for gun givaways.

Maybe add a raffle to the gun givaway.

Some may win a gun through performance others through the luck of the draw.

When you pay the entry fee for the point series you are automatically entered into the gun raffle.

It costs USPSA nothing and adds incentives for the shooters to jump in.

That would motivate me to throw my hat in the ring.

I don't know whats involved in getting a match into the PS but I suspect it involves some paperwork and some sort of fee paid to USPSA.

I especially like the idea of making any level II or above match automatically elligible, but would doing so eliminate needed revenue?

Let's get this thing fixed once and for all and have some fun with it.

Tls

Edited August 8, 2006 by tlshores

[SmittyFL]

It's dead. Let it die in peace.

It needed one thing to be successful in my opinion.....cash.

If the point of the point series is/was to determine the best/most consistant shooter of the year then the big matches have to be included. In order to motivate the shooters to travel and spend money to attend a match they otherwise wouldn't due to distance or expense or whatever there has to be a "carrot" at the end. aka cash.

Two of the biggest gripes of years past was it's too expensive and not everybody can get to the Nationals.

The old $100 was probably the limit as to what shooters are willing to pay and it was barely enough to cover a pay out worth it. So that means there has to be cash from somewhere else. Sponsors are already about tapped out plus the fact they aren't too keen on giving cash over product (I don't blame them) so that leaves USPSA to cough up some cash. Whether or not that is a good idea is debatable.

I think the lower fee this year made it "seem" of less worth; whether it was or not.

If the fee were $150 and that was matched somehow. With 10 in a division and class that would be $3000 payout. Or $2000 to 1st and $1000 to 2nd. Now it's worth it to go to that one extra match for a shot. Obviously that doesn't leave any money for admin or anything else. But it couldn't be that expensive to administrate the series.

One state/section

Four areas

Nationals

Score best 5 of 6; Nats must be included.

My opinion of course.

Reality.........let it die.

[Gary Stevens]

Unfortunately many of the things Matt advocates are exactly what others say prevented them from participating. Too many matches, can't always get time off to attend the Nationals, too much money, too little pay out, etc. They said they wanted a plaque only with reduced fees.

Enter new phase. Results the same.

I suspect it is DRT (deat right there).

As Smitty said, let it rest in peace.

Gary

[Bob Hostetter]

With the wide variety and the number of matches you need to shoot to compete in the Point Series, in can get very expensive to make a run at it, in some cases near impossible. If you are from the Southwest there is a good chance you won't get into the Area 2 so you are looking at spending a bunch of money to travel to 2 other Areas. Since 99.9% of USPSA members have no guantee they are going to get into the Nationals, you might shoot all year, spend lots of money and not be able to get into a required match. And you are going to spend all this money in hopes of winning a plaque? As it stands right now there is very little reason to compete in it.

Having said that, I think it is a good idea but needs to be completely revamped. I have a couple of suggestions...............

Break it down to a series within each "Area", having a series of point matches within each Area that earn you a slot to your Area Championships. Out of all the "Series" shooters who compete in that "Area match" let the winners earn a slot to the Nationals. Out of the Nationals "Point Series" competitor's determine the Point Series Champion's based on overall points. Give the Points Series competitor's the same up front media coverage normally reserved for the Super GM's both on the website and in the "Front Sight".

Or of course we could just let in die a slow death................

[Carmoney]

I think the lower fee this year made it "seem" of less worth; whether it was or not.

Kinda interesting--Point Series participation in 2006 grew (over 2005) in every division except for Limited and Production. You guys must be the mercenaries!

If you ask me, the biggest problem with the Series is USPSA's total lack of commitment to publicize it, promote it, and make it a big deal. Have you seen anything in Front Sight about the Point Series winners from 2005? (I sure haven't.)

[Steve Moneypenny]

How does nascar make it work?

well first if you want to be national champion you have to hit these matches/races.... x. x. x.x. but that will mean no more "nationals" one match doesn't make you a national champion. all of those who want to be a national champion go to these 4 or 5 matches. that's about the only way a point series will work.

one other posibility is to throw a ton of cash at it.. but it won't fix the problem. for sponsors to throw cash it has to be publicized!!!!! it has to get attention for "advertising" to be cost effective for anyone give money to it.

make it the "gun company point series" give it it's own flashy website. a monthly article in front sight on standings, goings on etc. Give everyone a hat or something to wear that points it out. it appears by their name in scores. a PS prefix or suffix to their member number?

without looking who knows who won what point series last year? did your favorite guy even shoot it?

I say kill it for 2007 . Regroup replan and enstate something that will work for 2008.

FWIW.. i'm winning production so far ... what a joke it turned into this year. and a lot of other shooters wanted to play in different divisions this year too it seemed.

[shred]

I agree with a lot of the posts.. I've said why I'm not in it a number of times, so I'll skip that, but when the widely acknowledged top shooters aren't in the PS, you can't really call it anything resembling a 'championship', and then it just kinda turns into a big postal match.

Here's a wacky idea. What if everybody were in the PS? No buy in, just do some database magic in Sedro and out pops a sorted list of shooters every month, posted on the web site. A lot of the local-only shooters would have zero points, as would most everybody for a while, but gradually you could see where you were in relation to everybody else if you shot any level III+ matches at all. I bet somebody could be convinced to drop some coin or prizes on the top competitors/divisions/classes then.

[shred]

Point system explained

NASCAR.COM

April 5, 2006

02:51 PM EDT (18:51 GMT)

The winner of each Nextel Cup race receives 180 points. The runner-up scores 170. From there, the point total declines in five-point increments for Nos. 2-6; points drop four points per driver for Nos. 7-11; and three-point increments separate drivers' points for finishers 12th place or lower.

In addition to the points allocated, any driver who leads a lap receives five bonus points. The driver who leads the most laps receives an additional five bonus points.

In Nextel Cup racing, following the 26th race of the season, all drivers in the top 10 -- and any others within 400 points of the leader -- earn a berth in the Chase for the Nextel Cup.

All drivers in the Chase will have their point totals adjusted. The first-place driver in the standings begins the Chase with 5,050 points; the second-place driver will start with 5,045, etc. Incremental five-point drops will continue through 10th place (5,000 points). If more than 10 drivers qualify for the Chase, the additional drivers will have their points reset at 5,000.

Owners are rewarded in the points race in much the same fashion but, unlike drivers, they earn points for merely attempting to make a race. If an owner shows up with two drivers and one fails to qualify, the owner still receives points for the non-qualifying effort.

Through the first five races of the season, the top 35 in owners' points from the previous season are guaranteed a starting spot in the race. Beginning with the sixth race, the top 35 in current owners' points are guaranteed a spot.

The fastest non-qualifier on race day earns 31 points for his owner, three down from the 43rd-place points. The scale continues downward for all non-qualifiers, with the lowest possible point awarded being one.

Manufacturers have a points race of their own. The car maker who has a driver take first place in a race earns nine points for that race. Second-best performance by a manufacturer gets six points, third place earns four points and fourth place, three points.

[Front Man]

I always thought the Area matches should be the National Championship matches with the last, extra match (race) held at Barry, Bend, Tulsa etc.

JMHO

FM

[Matt Cheely]

The Points Series results have always been buried, almost hidden, that did not help. Changing the format year after year did not help. Changing the format for 06 and then not posting the correct format on the Points Series hidden page did not help.

I couldn't agree more. Nothing is clear on the website. How are people supposed to want to participate if the 5 people in single stack are the only ones that are paying any attention to the results???

If you ask me, the biggest problem with the Series is USPSA's total lack of commitment to publicize it, promote it, and make it a big deal. Have you seen anything in Front Sight about the Point Series winners from 2005? (I sure haven't.)

I'm sensing a recurring theme... Shooters should get national recognition for winning the series, we have to give it to them!!!!!

What if everybody were in the PS? No buy in, just do some database magic in Sedro and out pops a sorted list of shooters every month, posted on the web site.

This is the best idea I've heard yet. I don't understand why it costs $1335 for USPSA to run the series. (75 current PS shooters at $25 a piece minus 36 plaques @ $15).

How costly is it to automatically dump the results for every competitor that shoots a major into the PS database? Publicize it, and get a couple of sponsors to donate a gun, or just have USPSA spend $500 on plaques to get the series going again.

Put it on the front page of the website, make it accessible, display it, write up the results in front sight. If you want to or not, you're in the race and maybe now you'll get hooked on it. Maybe halfway through the season, you see that you're not doing too bad. If you could get to this one extra match that's 10 hours away to win your class, maybe you'll make the drive.

And for an additional incentive, instead of competing with your buddy for a higher classification, now you can try to be ranked higher in match performance from the whole year.

Just a few thoughts...

[Carmoney]

Here's a wacky idea. What if everybody were in the PS? No buy in, just do some database magic in Sedro and out pops a sorted list of shooters every month, posted on the web site.

I agree, this is a great idea!!

And frankly, it would be much more meaningful than the "Top 20" listings that are posted now.

[tpcdvc]

I like the all in idea. The only thing that we have to address is what matches should count. I like the way it is the year save one thing. I think that for the match to count for the point series it should have to meet the same criteria as a match that counts as a classifier. 3 GM's ect. That way you can't shoot a match that has thirty or so competitors in your division with maybe a couple of masters and end up with a really high percentage that is not deserved.

[Matt Cheely]

I like the all in idea. The only thing that we have to address is what matches should count. I like the way it is the year save one thing. I think that for the match to count for the point series it should have to meet the same criteria as a match that counts as a classifier. 3 GM's ect. That way you can't shoot a match that has thirty or so competitors in your division with maybe a couple of masters and end up with a really high percentage that is not deserved.

This is difficult because how many state matches do you know that end up with 3 GM's, let alone all 3 that shoot 95%. Thats hard to come by at some area matches. Same can be said for revo, single stack, and L10 at the majority of matches.

If you want the better matches to count, make it one "other", 2 state, and 2 area matches.

[38superman]

This is something that has to be addressed.

I don't see as much of an issue in the larger divisions.

However in the smaller divisions you can have small sectionals with a field of less than a dozen shooters with a mix that looks like this:

2 B, 5 C, 3 D, 2 U

B or C class shooter ends up with 100% score.

This vs. a shooter that shoots in larger sectionals with 5 or 6 master class shooters among a field of 40 or 50 competitors.

The point series is the only form of competition in this sport that spans multiple matches.

Competition within a match is uniform.

All competitors face exactly the same challenges vs. the same level of competition.

Figuring out how to keep the playing field level across multiple matches is a much bigger challenge.

Tls

[Matt Cheely]

Figuring out how to keep the playing field level across multiple matches is a much bigger challenge.

I agree. The easiest way to accomplish this, as I see it, is to reduce the number of state matches and increase the area match count. You usually get much better attendance from an area match, hence better competition. Maybe 2 area match points times 2, one state, and one other? But then we start to make the points series less obtainable for shooters that cannot afford to go to multiple area matches that are far away.

Thread drift* I happened to think about the idea of making the national championship more like the PS: 5 area matches and nationals points times 2, result is a national champ that had to shoot all over the country, against more shooters, and in more matches than 4 days in Barry. Some say that USPSA will never go for something like that...

[Flexmoney]

Figuring out how to keep the playing field level across multiple matches is a much bigger challenge.

One of our members (that isn't around anymore) tackled that long before we had the point series.

He set up a program that compared major match scores.

He had the math worked out pretty well. His website listed a ranking of the top 100 shooters in each division.

Bummer that USPSA didn't latch onto it.

(That program has been well covered here on the forum...a search might bring it up.)

[Matt Cheely]

Could you say, find the average score of B and C class shooters against top GM's at major matches, use that to create a baseline. You might not get 3 GM's to compare to at every match, but there's always a lot of B and C class shooters to compare to. Food for thought.

[tpcdvc]

Well.

Maybe it should be at least one GM that scores in the top 5%???????? I know in limited all the matches I shot this year had at least 2 GMs. SC had 5, A6 had 9, KY state had 2, Summerblast had 4, Area 8 had 4, GA state had 3 and the doubletap that should have been a ps match had 11. But for L10 and other smaller turn out divisions I'm not sure the answer. Maybe if say a match or rather a division that has no GMs and say an A class shooter wins the division his percentage can only be his highest percent based on his class i.e. 84.99%. Then the rest of the field gets their percentage based on the 84.99?

This is a tough one!

Edited August 9, 2006 by tpcdvc

[38superman]

I thought about what you are suggesting and I'm not sure I could support it.

It amounts to "grading on a curve" taking the classification percentage of the winning shooter and grading everyone else against that.

It's sounds reasonable at first glance but it doesn't take too long to start poking holes in it when you start to think about it.

For example:

What do you do if the match winner is one of those guys that brings his 58% classification to the match and turns in a master class performance?

This because he hasn't filed a classifier since 1997? (don't get me started)

I think you just have to take the sectional out of the equation altogether or give them less weight.

Maybe the point series should be restricted to Level III or higher matches to guarantee the participation makes the results relevant.

I know, I know..... that makes it tough for those that can't travel so much.

Not a good way to bring the PS to the masses.

Not an appealling option, but it's either that or make all matches a PS match and disallow any match/division that can't field enough A/M/GM shooters to be meaningful in a multimatch competition.

There's got to be a way to do this in a fair and equitable manner. We just have to find it.

Tony

Edited August 9, 2006 by tlshores

[38superman]

Addendum to my previous post.

We need to add a little glamour to this race.

Something along the lines of the Bianchi Cup.

Imagine:

Winner of the "Shooting USA" Point Series Championship

The "Jeff Cooper Trophy" to be awarded by Jim Scoutten on camera.

Tls

Edited August 9, 2006 by tlshores

[Jake Di Vita]

It's not necessarily important to bring the point series to the masses for competing, just for viewing. The NASCAR point series is just that....a professional point series that generates interest.