Multi-gun Nationals

[George]

The only shooters of major import missing were Kurt, Kelly, Benny and Beven (and his crew), the rest of the usual suspects in the supersquads were there in spades. The other 30+ missing folk were for the most part lower case m's, A's B's, C's and D's who don't populate the supersquads and happen to live too far, or could not make it for various sundry reasons. The turnout at 160+ was still good enough to provide an excellent level of competition for all. Plenty of folks came quite a ways to shoot.

[smokshwn]

Gordon and George,

Nice job carrying the banner for the BEr's in MOR. Congrats.

[Chuck Anderson]

Yeah, I definitely didn't impress anyone in MOR. Probably not a good sign when I place the same in MOR as in the main match. Oh well maybe next year.

[wgnoyes]

....Maybe we need to sell our swamp land in Oregon/Washington where ever it is ...

Off-topic note: The land was finally sold in the last year, as mentioned in an issue of Front Sight, so that's over. And it wasn't swamp land; that's a popular misconception. I saw the plot myself last year. There's a small stream running behind it. The presence of that stream marks the area as a flood plain, and that was the issue. They could have built something there, it just would have cost more than they planned. It didn't stop others from building senior citizen centers, day care facilities, and other new businesses all around it. At any rate, USPSA no longer owns that plot. Thanks.

Edited August 1, 2006 by wgnoyes

[bgary]

The other 30+ missing folk were for the most part

The other 30+ missing folks seem to be from AZ, NM, TX and NV, who apparently (in conjunction with > $3/gallon gas prices) felt Orygun was too far to drive to. I looked at the attendance by states, over the last 3 years of MG matches, and found

-- the expected spike in attendance from home- and neighboring states

-- the people that *fly* to the match, still did (NC, VA, etc)

-- the big "drop" in attendance was from states that are "normally" driving distance from the match, but a couple of states away. I think that is an anomaly because... well, take as a micro-example: There were a fair number of Oregon and Washington shooters at the multi-gun match in Vegas. Of the Vegas area shooters that shot the Vegas match, very *few* of them drove to the match in Oregon. My guess is that was - at least in part - the higher cost of driving.

It's too bad. They missed a good one.

Bruce

[kurtm]

I haven't had the chance to talk to anyone who actually shot the match to find out how it went, but it sounds like everyone had fun.Congratulations to all! Did the scoring hold up? was it really muti-gun? Can anyone describe the stages?

I,m not sure why the "nationals" only had 160 people when SMM3G filled up at 250, and RM3G claims to be full at 250....the 30 people that weren't there look more like 90 to me

You really can't count me as I usually don't go to the Nationals anyway. After shooting the Nationals in 2004 for the first time I decided to see how it would go, and was fairly glad I missed 2005. I hope 2006 was a great year as it might make me want to go next year, but so far I haven't see much in the way of rave reviews like I do for SMM3G and RM3G in the years past. I had the time to go, I had a way to go, just not much desire to go untill I know it will be worth while. I see the amount of D.Qs was down from years past and that is a good thing in and of itself. There might be hope yet!

My hat is off to ANYONE who puts on a major match, I know what kind of work that takes! Even though I wasn't there THANK YOU to the range staff! No one would be shooting with out these guys!! KURT

[outerlimits]

have posted 4 videos of various stages from the match in the USPSA gallery...

[Chuck Anderson]

For anyone considering going to a USPSA Multi Gun match, please don't use the 2004 match as a yardstick. That thing was a disaster with the new rules that no one quite knew how to put into effect. 2005 was much better and I think most of the kinks were out by this year. There were a few odd ball things that came up, i.e. one very good shooter got DQ'd because when he put his pistol in the box the safety got knocked off. I think we're still working on it but I think the rules are getting ironed out. To the shooters that have given up on USPSA, come back. We've got a President willing to change. The last couple MG matches I've been to, Mike always has a little sitdown at the end of the match and asks what needs changed. Some things just won't be changed, like doing away with HF scoring, but a ton of stuff has been changed in the last few years.

[EricW]

I hate to point out the thunderingly obvious, but the popularity of particular 3-gun matches over others is primarily driven by what's on the prize table. If the prize table at the multi-gun nats was as rich as DPMS, RM3G, etc. you can bet that people would commute there from Antarctica if necessary.

You have to wonder if all the people who are upset over matches being held in Oregon (or the West Coast) have ever even travelled that way. I can think of a LOT worse places to attend matches. At least there's stuff to do, see, and nice places to eat while you're there.

[Shooter Grrl]

Well Kurt - I didn't shoot this match, but I did work it. I didn't go to '04 nor '05 so all I can comment on is my personal opinion as an RO/Shooter Support attendee.

Twas an awesome match dude There were 2 stages that required you to use all 3 guns. One was completely freestyle (Stage 2), not a box nor port in sight, the other was the usual portfest "shoot as you see 'em" caca. (Stage 11) There were 2 long distance rifle stages and 1 close up rifle hosefest. There was one pistol only and one shotgun only stage - all the rest were a mix of 2 guns. And one of them even required 2 long guns - I hadn't seen that before and trust me, it caused just a few discussions among the staff on the "what if" side of things.

The DQ's were WWWWAAAAAAY down this year! I was working the stage where the box caused the safety to come off and trust me - NO ONE wanted to DQ him. We all talked and honestly tried to find a way out of it, but safety has to come first.

The prize table was not along the lines of the DPMS, but good grief, USPSA is a volunteer unpaid staff and not exactly one of the largest rifle company's in the country! For what it was, the right to call yourself a National Champion, the prize table was above ordinary. We got some mainstream sponsors this year - Oakley had actually had glasses on the table and Truck Vault was a sponsor as well.

The location was beautiful! The RO's sweltered, but when it came to actual match day, I had to borrow a jacket and then finally gave up and went and bought a sweatshirt! It was an easy drive to the hotels and range from the Portland Airport, but I gotta say - Flying with 3 Gun gear sucks! We're discussing not going again, ever, to any match if we have to fly to it.

So all in all, I think you would have enjoyed the match.

[recon215]

Well Kurt - I didn't shoot this match, but I did work it. I didn't go to '04 nor '05 so all I can comment on is my personal opinion as an RO/Shooter Support attendee.

Twas an awesome match dude There were 2 stages that required you to use all 3 guns. One was completely freestyle (Stage 2), not a box nor port in sight, the other was the usual portfest "shoot as you see 'em" caca. (Stage 11) There were 2 long distance rifle stages and 1 close up rifle hosefest. There was one pistol only and one shotgun only stage - all the rest were a mix of 2 guns. And one of them even required 2 long guns - I hadn't seen that before and trust me, it caused just a few discussions among the staff on the "what if" side of things.

The DQ's were WWWWAAAAAAY down this year! I was working the stage where the box caused the safety to come off and trust me - NO ONE wanted to DQ him. We all talked and honestly tried to find a way out of it, but safety has to come first.

The prize table was not along the lines of the DPMS, but good grief, USPSA is a volunteer unpaid staff and not exactly one of the largest rifle company's in the country! For what it was, the right to call yourself a National Champion, the prize table was above ordinary. We got some mainstream sponsors this year - Oakley had actually had glasses on the table and Truck Vault was a sponsor as well.

The location was beautiful! The RO's sweltered, but when it came to actual match day, I had to borrow a jacket and then finally gave up and went and bought a sweatshirt! It was an easy drive to the hotels and range from the Portland Airport, but I gotta say - Flying with 3 Gun gear sucks! We're discussing not going again, ever, to any match if we have to fly to it.

So all in all, I think you would have enjoyed the match.

C'mon Kath,

Some of us know you have the guns to shoot 3 Gun matches! You going to shoot Ky this year? C'Ya there if ya are! Any stage info on the MOR match? Distances/target type and size, round count?

Thanks

Edited August 3, 2006 by recon215

[smokshwn]

Eric wins the prize Ding Ding Ding.

Last year, not hot placement at RM3G and I walked with JP freefloat tube, tank brake, and a few other goodies.

Nats 05 same level of finish and I got about a $15 dollar sling that was incomplete.

I am not trying to ding anyone, however for me that did play into the travel costs. To know you will either get some payback or useful products helps to offset the sting of match costs.

Take care, Craig

[kurtm]

When I post " worth while" I am NOT talking about a prize table!! I have traveled over seas for a "presidents medal" (I now have 6 of those), no money, no prizes, no nothing other than going to a good match. Other than the ego stroke of hey that yankee kicked a** there isn't a prize in sight. I spent far more going to Denmark for the Nordic Rifle championships than I ever would have to go to the U.S. Nationals, but I thought it would be a far superior match. I trust Cathy Cat, and you just might see me next year...if nothing overseas gets in the way I guess Erik should shoot a Glock, but then again sh#t happens! Wish he was going to Greece with the lonely U.S. team!

As for prize tables, I am still triing to get rid of a DPMS upper ( I am partng all the rest), and I can't even seem to give away a complete 16" AT-4 upper for $425.00, so what good do they really do?? KURT

[smokshwn]

I didn't mean to suggest that a prize table is the only motivation. But when the yearly schedule has two national level 3 guns, and 4 or 5 area matches and a nationals it was one of the factors considering the costs of the drive. I have no thoughts that I will ever offset my costs regardless how much I win (or don't win which is usually the case:D)

Flying to a pistol match is no problem but flying 3 gun is a pain in the ass. I live in utah and although I wanted to go to nationals the drive is a one day ass kicker or a two day expense.

Edited August 2, 2006 by smokshwn

[ccur]

Hey...the stages were really FUN!!! I had a great time!! Did I like the long range stage...ummmm, NO!! But...if I had shot it better, well, maybe The whole match was awesome....from the demeanor of the match staff and RO's to the weather! I would go back there...

Thanks to all the match staff, Everett and Tom, and the RO's..Thanks to squad 9 for putting up with me!

Cheryl

[EricW]

FWIW, I don't shoot multi-gun. I've realized I'm a mono gun guy - and I'm at peace with that. But I see people on here going on and on and on about how so and so's match is sold out a year in advance and how the USPSA Multi-Gun Nats is perennially space available. <insert never ending discussion about why here>

For the answer as to why - compare prize tables. It's that simple. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but that is the difference for the disparity in attendance whether anyone chooses to believe it or not.

[Shooter Grrl]

I disagree Eric. I don't think prize tables are the reason. I'm guessing it has more to do with the ever changing rules and their complexity and the "reputation" of the match contents. USPSA Multi Gun is a 3 year old match now - and it has shown it's growing pains in the past matches. This one went well, with a great mix of stages and much better rules. (The only real valid complaint about the match is the "nearness" of the targets on the bays and that was an accident - the club, for an unexplained and unknown reason, cut the bays about 40ft shorter than the match asked them to!)

I've convinced myself (and I may be wrong) that the location and the growing pains exhibited the last 2 years is what caused such a low attendance. The first 2 matches were in the best possible locations that almost always sell out. People that don't shoot go to matches in Vegas and Reno. It was pretty much die-hards in the wilds of Oregon this year

[Bear1142]

Well, I was trying to keep a low profile, but I guess I'm the proverbial elephant in the corner of the room. Yep, I got DQ'd when a freak accident caused my safety to be disengaged during the transfer from a pistol to a shotgun on a two-gun stage. I want all of BEnoverse to know how professional the matter was handled. My discussions after the incident between the Rangemaster and the CRO were calm and collected. They answered all of my questions and helped me work through what had happened. We talked about the options available to me and they helped me through the abitration process (my first one in 11 years of competition.) I'd like to thank those on the Arbitration committee who were required to take time away from their match and their mental game to come deal with this incident; You know who you are. I'd also like the thank the Arb. comittee again for considering my appeal. It was certainly a weird incident that required some thought and deliberation. I made my case and I lost, but that's the process. I still think I had a valid reason, but that's neither here nor there. I want to thank the MD and the Rangemaster for their fast work and Kathy for lending me her rulebook. I switched range bags for this trip and I forgot mine. The whole process was over about 1 1/2 hr. after the incident. Were the ruling to go in my favor, I would have only had to shoot through one stage to catch back up with my squad. All in all, it was the most professional DQ I've ever experienced!

I'll be back next year, even if it's in Antarctica.

Erik

[Trail3]

Great Match,

Great Weather,

Great Squad, #6

My shooting, not so great.

Thanks to the staff and all the RO's and others for putting on a super match.

[chp5]

I'd like to thank those on the Arbitration committee . . .

I'd also like the thank the Arb. comittee again . . .

I want to thank the MD and the Rangemaster . . .

You forgot to thank the Academy too

You've been shooting very strong 3G and I'm sure you would have placed high - too bad.

As a mtter of fact, the only time I beat you was when you DQ'd at South River. Thank you

Edited August 2, 2006 by chp5

[George]

I'm with Kath here on why. It ain't the prize table that gets the draw at any match IMHO (take a look at the pistol nats if you want some data on large turnouts without humongous prize tables).

I absolutely agree with the opinion that the location this year, the debacle at Reno in 2004, the complicated rules in comparison to IMG scoring and high gas prices along with a number of other interlocking factors are to blame, not a so-so prize table. The prize table was actually pretty decent last year and this year.

I have managed to pull almost $500 of combined prize value off the USPSA Multigun National prize tables in the last two years with so-so finishes in Open. That ain't a wimpy selection IMO when you get there 50+ shooters down and there are still $150-$200+ items available.

I had a so-so finish at the 2003 RM3G and only got a pittance prize worth under $50 (if that). At the 2004 RM3G, I placed right around top 25% in Open and still got just about the same value off the prize table as I did at the USPSA Multiguns in 05 and 06.

It is NOT the prize table IMHO and IME that controls attendance. To say that is ignoring the reality of why the majority of us compete in this sport. I am at the matches I go to because of the match itself and it's competition level, not the level of prize possibilities it offers. Location and travel hassle are the next level of consideration past competition level. Prize level is the last thing I care about and it never enters the equation when I am match shopping, ever!

I would be a pretty sorry case if I was in this sport just for the prize table compensation level ;-)

[George]

I am now going to offer my $.02 on this years USPSA Multigun Nationals in comparison to ANY multigun match I have attended in the past.

The 06 USMG was absolutely the best, most balanced and well run multigun match that I have EVER been to PERIOD. The previous high water mark for me was the 04 RM3G. The 06 USMG surpassed that by far IMHO.

The LD rifle stage (12) was one of the most challenging and well designed LD rifle stages I have ever shot. Heck, I even managed to place above Jerry on it (what happened there?) . It made the 03 and 04 RM3G LD rifle stages seem easy in comparison and is exactly what I consider a well & proper LD rifle stage to be as opposed to the carnival stage in Vegas last year with only a couple barely challenging LD shots (a 325 yard shot on an MGM flasher from a solid prone position is NOT very challenging IMHO).

The medium distance rifle stage (1) was a real seperator from the shooters and wannabe's too. It took real rifle skills to make it through in anything under 50 seconds. I am proud to have shot it clean in 40 seconds, especially after watching Daniel Horner pull a 35 second run a couple shooters later and seeing Tony Holmes burn it down in 32 seconds clean a squad later.

The Multigun stages all had enough twists and turns to make them challenging. The single gun stages were also challenging and varied.

There were 3 rifle only stages (1 LD, 1 medium and 1 CQ), 3 shotgun only stages (1 was slugs only), 1 pistol only stage, 3 two gun stages and two 3 gun stages. Pretty well balanced and exactly my kind of match, challenging and fun ;-)

The stage design far surpassed the level of design present in the 05 USMG and even beat my previous fave, the 04 RM3G. The LD rifle stage was the real kicker here for me. Keep designing rifle and multigun stages like this and I will go anywhere to attend the USMG PERIOD.

My hat is off to the US Design Team for 06 (take a deep bow Tom, you earned it!).

If the same level of match is able to put on the ground anywhere in the US next year, then the USMG is well on it's way to becoming the premier 3G/MG match in the world.

Edited August 2, 2006 by George

[richardschennberg]

I have shot both 3-gun and multi-gun. While occasionally a 3-gun stage is quite entertaining, I generally do not like matches that have multi-gun stages. They are more prone to DQ traps, to time delays, and to an order of finish different than shooting ability.

Since there are already pistol-only championships, I think we would be better-served by having a few long-gun only matches, or even rifle and shotgun only.

I think the tradeoff of fun vs. hauling around a lot of gear and ammo, and learning how to quickly ground a gun with the safety on, is just not worth it. Also, when you have experienced shooter DQs you also have signs of lack of safety. If multi-gun is any less safe than stages that have only one gun per start, then I think we have to put safety first and go with the safest course design. Even if USPSA never gives up their multi-gun rules, I think every MD, CRO, and stage designer has to consider time to run a stage, and most importanty, safety, before considering 3 guns instead of 2 or 2 guns instead of 1.

[kim schioldan]

okay i have to put in my 10 cents about the match in Albany, first of all i consider my self a novice shooter so getting to shoot with the "super squad" gave me a lot of presure, i had a debacle on the 2 first stages and i feldt crushed! but i pulled my sorry ass together and i got a lot better!

everybody on that squad is awesome to name a few, Burkett, Voigt, Bednorz, Butler,Mickulic, Coolie and everybody else was so helpfull that i was blown away!! the kindness and the camaraderie really made my match and i am very gratefull, i have competed in different sports in my life but i have never feldt such support and seen so much kindness!

and for the match, i know Chambers and Maastich and i will tell anybody , when they are involved in anything it becomes top notch, the stages, the schedule, the venue i mean this was as good as it gets, this is the cream of the sport! i would like to give out a big thank you to all the ROs, and who ever was involved in this incredible experience and a special thanks to mr. Mike Mccarter who is an amazing force of nature! being able to shoot such a quality match is what makes my life a lot better!if i ever can give just a fraction back to the sport like they are i would feel very proud! guys:THANK YOU SOO MUCH, and if possible keep up the fenomanol job, and for the people that didnt make it , you lost out bigtime!!!!! this thing we have in USPSA is in many ways uniqie and i wish that i can experience many more maches like this one!

I have shot both 3-gun and multi-gun. While occasionally a 3-gun stage is quite entertaining, I generally do not like matches that have multi-gun stages. They are more prone to DQ traps, to time delays, and to an order of finish different than shooting ability.

Since there are already pistol-only championships, I think we would be better-served by having a few long-gun only matches, or even rifle and shotgun only.

I think the tradeoff of fun vs. hauling around a lot of gear and ammo, and learning how to quickly ground a gun with the safety on, is just not worth it. Also, when you have experienced shooter DQs you also have signs of lack of safety. If multi-gun is any less safe than stages that have only one gun per start, then I think we have to put safety first and go with the safest course design. Even if USPSA never gives up their multi-gun rules, I think every MD, CRO, and stage designer has to consider time to run a stage, and most importanty, safety, before considering 3 guns instead of 2 or 2 guns instead of 1.

I have shot both 3-gun and multi-gun. While occasionally a 3-gun stage is quite entertaining, I generally do not like matches that have multi-gun stages. They are more prone to DQ traps, to time delays, and to an order of finish different than shooting ability.

Since there are already pistol-only championships, I think we would be better-served by having a few long-gun only matches, or even rifle and shotgun only.

I think the tradeoff of fun vs. hauling around a lot of gear and ammo, and learning how to quickly ground a gun with the safety on, is just not worth it. Also, when you have experienced shooter DQs you also have signs of lack of safety. If multi-gun is any less safe than stages that have only one gun per start, then I think we have to put safety first and go with the safest course design. Even if USPSA never gives up their multi-gun rules, I think every MD, CRO, and stage designer has to consider time to run a stage, and most importanty, safety, before considering 3 guns instead of 2 or 2 guns instead of 1.

well i dont know about that, multigun is an incredible challeng and i see a lot of whiining about the travel, but ican honestly say that i have never had ANY bad experince flying with all the gear needed for a 3-gun match, in regards to safety i think that these matched are as safe or safer than anything in the sport that we love, is it more work to go to a 3-gun match? yes it is, is it worth it OH YES IT IS, and for the the rules, the sport is still so new rhat they are evolving and guess what? it works!!

FWIW, I don't shoot multi-gun. I've realized I'm a mono gun guy - and I'm at peace with that. But I see people on here going on and on and on about how so and so's match is sold out a year in advance and how the USPSA Multi-Gun Nats is perennially space available. <insert never ending discussion about why here>

For the answer as to why - compare prize tables. It's that simple. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but that is the difference for the disparity in attendance whether anyone chooses to believe it or not.

lets get real here, if the prize table is what drives people why would so many people go to such extent to attent theese matches, if you dont place in top 10 in any match chances are that you will get an item woth about a 10 th of the price of practice, travel, etc, etc so that excuse does not hold water!

I didn't mean to suggest that a prize table is the only motivation. But when the yearly schedule has two national level 3 guns, and 4 or 5 area matches and a nationals it was one of the factors considering the costs of the drive. I have no thoughts that I will ever offset my costs regardless how much I win (or don't win which is usually the case:D)

Flying to a pistol match is no problem but flying 3 gun is a pain in the ass. I live in utah and although I wanted to go to nationals the drive is a one day ass kicker or a two day expense.

that is BS, if you have your stuff in an gun case how is that different having 1 or 3 guns?

I have shot both 3-gun and multi-gun. While occasionally a 3-gun stage is quite entertaining, I generally do not like matches that have multi-gun stages. They are more prone to DQ traps, to time delays, and to an order of finish different than shooting ability.

Since there are already pistol-only championships, I think we would be better-served by having a few long-gun only matches, or even rifle and shotgun only.

I think the tradeoff of fun vs. hauling around a lot of gear and ammo, and learning how to quickly ground a gun with the safety on, is just not worth it. Also, when you have experienced shooter DQs you also have signs of lack of safety. If multi-gun is any less safe than stages that have only one gun per start, then I think we have to put safety first and go with the safest course design. Even if USPSA never gives up their multi-gun rules, I think every MD, CRO, and stage designer has to consider time to run a stage, and most importanty, safety, before considering 3 guns instead of 2 or 2 guns instead of 1.

well i dont know about that, multigun is an incredible challeng and i see a lot of whiining about the travel, but ican honestly say that i have never had ANY bad experince flying with all the gear needed for a 3-gun match, in regards to safety i think that these matched are as safe or safer than anything in the sport that we love, is it more work to go to a 3-gun match? yes it is, is it worth it OH YES IT IS, and for the the rules, the sport is still so new rhat they are evolving and guess what? it works!!

[smokshwn]

that is BS, if you have your stuff in an gun case how is that different having 1 or 3 guns?

Well let's see,

Pistol match, I can have one gun that fits in a small locked case inside my other luggage and is relatively hidden from casual observation. I also carry 400 rds of ammo in said luggage without to much effort. No sweat, fill out a card at the counter I am on my way. Total risk of loss if the luggage gets lost $3500.

or 3 gun,

One large Pelican 1750 with shotgun, rifle, and pistol. Regardless of color it screams hey, whatever is in here is incredibly valueable and would be a good haul. You are then lucky if the airline accepts it as baggage without charging an oversize/overweight fee on it. Also with the extra accessories involved in 3 gun means my regular luggage is getting pretty full as well (ar mags, shotgun speedloaders, rangefinder, etc.), oh and do I bring the stroller so I have a way to pack my crap around when I get there??? (ever try to get a stroler checked into baggage when you don't have a kid?) Now total risk for loss luggage just went through the roof. For me personally it goes to an easy $8-9k.

I won't even get into the extra bag and cost of a MOR.

Then comes the issue with ammo. There is no way you will get enough on a plane for a match which then necessitates finding someone willing to accept it and secure it until your arrival. (more extra $$) Then you hope some idiot in the shipping chain doesn't stop it/refuse to accept it because of the little ORM-D tag.

So to suggest that flying to a 3 Gun match is as simple or easy as flying to a pistol match is to completely ignore the facts so you can tell someone they are full of B.S.

Good for you that went and had a great time. Some of us decided not to go. I know Everett and Tom as well and you are right in saying that they run a good match. A1 was great this year.

Take care, Craig

Edited August 6, 2006 by smokshwn