Jim Taylor Posted June 21, 2006 Share Posted June 21, 2006 Olean MO I was thinking that if the Missourians would prone (pum intended) to bundle the Bianchi Cup with this event, it just might save the Cup (pun intended). Any ideas out there? Jim Taylor Featherweight Division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg in VA Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 I took a picture of that also..............I figured no one would believe me unless they saw it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Taylor Posted June 23, 2006 Author Share Posted June 23, 2006 I took a picture of that also..............I figured no one would believe me unless they saw it. One of the regular wags wondered if they mispelled "Tactical". Jim I took a picture of that also..............I figured no one would believe me unless they saw it. One of the regular wags wondered if they mispelled "Tactical". Jim Of course, I misspelled misspelled. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnelson Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 I'm all for reviving interest in the Bianchi Cup but may have missed something, maybe on another topic. You mentioned "tactical", but I have no idea what you're referring to. I run the AP discipline for GV and would like to see it prosper rather than die. I look forward to your response, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 I've always felt, right or wrong, that a major factor hurting the Bianchi Cup partcipation was it not being pushed or promoted at the local level more. One old NRA club I belonged to would not allow drawing from a holster, even though the Bianch Cup stages are NRA stages. Not seeing any efforts to promote it to the clubs, including hte 22 portion that's in the rule book. I've also felt they should have 22's at teh Cup since it is in hte rule book. Random thoughts. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnelson Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 I've always felt, right or wrong, that a major factor hurting the Bianchi Cup partcipation was it not being pushed or promoted at the local level more. One old NRA club I belonged to would not allow drawing from a holster, even though the Bianch Cup stages are NRA stages.Not seeing any efforts to promote it to the clubs, including hte 22 portion that's in the rule book. I've also felt they should have 22's at teh Cup since it is in hte rule book. Random thoughts. Guy Promotion? What promotion? There is none or very little so you're right on about that. "one old NRA club" that wouldn't allow drawing from the holster must have been a local rule of their Club. I assume they treated all competitive disciplines the same, that's their right to do so even though we don't aggree with it. I've had AP competitors at our local matches start from the international ready position, no big deal as there are no awards or they are minimal. The main thing is to get new competitors into the shooting sports - men, women and juniors. 22s are the best way, but the NRA, to date, offers no awards for that class even at the Cup. They do have an rimfire classification. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Just some thoughts about reviving the Cup/NRA AP. 1 - Get rid of The Mover. It's near impossible for a club to dedicate a bay to this apparatus and not want to do something else instead. Meaning, why have a complex contraption that eats up an entire bay when that same bay can be used for everything in the way of action pistol shooting and practice which for most clubs = $$$$. 2 - Reduce the match fee. I know the prize table is good. But for as long as you have to be out there for that match, it gets spendy. 3 - Have multiples of the same stages. I've never been to the Cup, but it appears that there is only one set of stages (i.e. not 3-4 bays that hold the Practical or the Falling Plates). This would speed up the match, allowing for fewer days. A match with 4-5 stages, especially as simple as the NRA-AP stages are should be shot in no more than a day to a day and a half, allowing for a mental break because of how stress can enter into an accuracy driven match (not for me...just folks in general). In the end, you have to make the sport simple and something people want to attend. It's why USPSA/IPSC/IDPA does well, because it can be played very well with anything you already have. Yes, NRA-AP is the same way, but see Comment # 1. Personally, I think this alone is probably the reason more folks don't shoot it. That, and probably folks don't want to practice basic fundamentals of accurate shooting (see 50 yard standards in USPSA). Nevertheless. By making the stages simpler for folks to set up at the club level will make it much more advantageous for folks to be interested in the match. Just my two Lincolns. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 My local NRA club believes that steel targets closer than 40 meters are dangerous, because that's why they moved the pistol silhouette chickens out there from 25 yards, (never mind the calibers people use for that and the crappy design of the right-angled foot...) I don't believe they've ever heard of AP, and if they did, wouldn't want any part of it. Why is that? Why isn't AP pushed by the NRA as one of "their" sports? Why aren't all NRA clubs encouraged to allow it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 People have to know that AP is more than just the 4 Cup events and little to no specialized equipment is necessary. It very much is a paper-and-target stand shooting discipline. Yeah, movers are complicated, cumbersome and expensive - but shoot it once and I think many will be hooked just like I was (and still am.) I've thought of ways to put AP into perspective for those familiar with "action" pistol shooting (3-gun, IPSC, IDPA) but who've never tried AP. This best thing I've come up with is that AP takes the most fundamental aspect of shooting - shooting small, consistent groups - but then complicates it by adding obstacles (barricade, moving targets), distance (10-50 yds) and time. It still baffles me to no end why USPSA shooters don't flock to this style of shooting, if only at the club level. Good grief, probably the only AP TGO shoots is during the week in Columbia and he just rips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911user Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 (edited) post deleted Edited June 26, 2006 by 1911user Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 The 3 action shooting matches you list (3-gun, IPSC, IDPA) all have several things in common that are completely different than AP. You're missing my point (which I wasn't making clearly.) If AP was the same as any of those, then it wouldn't be AP, would it? There is enough similarity that I think it will appeal to many. The other thing that I'm growing more and more tired of is folks who are quick to jump up and, perhaps actively or passively(sp?), put AP down for [insert reason here]. That just doesn't add up for me. If you don't have an interest, I'd much rather you keep it to yourself for now because it isn't productive discussion - IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911user Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 (edited) If you don't have an interest, I'd much rather you keep it to yourself for now because it isn't productive discussion - IMO. done. Edited June 26, 2006 by 1911user Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 If you don't have an interest, I'd much rather you keep it to yourself for now because it isn't productive discussion - IMO. done. Again Dave, thought this was an OPEN forum, not the privy of one or two folks opinions. That being said, the issue is not whether or not AP would be enjoyable or not enjoyable. Too, no one has said you need specialized equipment to run it. A big issue, IMHO, is that you cannot practice for the mover without a dedicated bay to it. In the sense of practicallity, on a range that doesn't have a lot of real estate to spare, as most do not, having a dedicated bay for one event, that is shot once a year, versus using that bay as a revenue source for IDPA, USPSA, 3-Gun, $5/day practice, archery, rifle, shotgun, plinkin', 22's, etc. is not practical. Yes, we can show up the week of the match and shoot the actual stages, but is that the same thing as working on it at your range and on your time? No. I would love to do AP, and have done the Bianchi course (not the match) and it was a lot of fun. It really tests how sound your fundamentals are. However, because of the mover, there is no 'practical' way of setting this type of shooting up across the country. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 The question isn't about OPEN or one or two opinions (least of all one of mine, who am I?). The question was about reviving interest - and those comments had nothing to do with reviving interest, and actually were the exact opposite. It's like saying "I don't like X even though I've never tried it." That's just noise. If you have that opinion - fine. Just have it in another thread is all I was saying. It wasn't on point. I realize that there are those who are not interested. That's fine - I have no problem with that. And, I'm not preaching to you or them. I just want to light a fire under the curious, yet inexperienced, as it were. You make good points about the Mover, Rich. But, I still think it is much more feasible that many realize. The only basis for the cost (only one component) of the equipment is MGM's or Action Target's price list. There are other options. There are a lot of USPSA clubs that still don't have a TX*, but that doesn't mean you don't see them at other matches or Majors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Pistolero Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 Rich, The mover doesn't really have to have it's own dedicated range. I shoot at 3 local clubs (2 hour drive) and only one of them has a dedicated range. One of the others only has the mover set up during a match. The other one (my home club), has the mover set up all the time and all that is needed to fire it up is to turn it on and get the remote. We shoot USPSA, IDPA, Cowboy, PPC and 4H practice on this range. It can be done. You just have to be aware of where the bullets will impact. We also use the mover in our USPSA and IDPA matches. The one thing that you have to realize about BigDave is that he loves AP and is very passionate about his sport. Those of us that shoot AP on a regular basis are the same way. Some of us just don't express it as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 Action Pistol got me into the shooting sports. It is still my favorite. That said none of the local clubs shoot it. I can go 4 or 5 different places and shoot USPSA and 1 has AP and it is barely holding on I think they'll probably drop it due to lack of participation. I think it must be promoted at a grassroots level and if that means simplifying the equipment requirements (read mover) so be it. The other problems is that it's difficult for a new shooter. Any one can go out and hit USPSA targets at 7 yards (Maybe not quickly but they can hit them) But going to your first AP match and hitting 9 out of 48 plates then watching the next guy mow down 48 in a row can be discouraging. That was me circa 1989 and it took a long time before I got 48 in a match. Just my 2 cents I love the sport but I am basically a local shooter. I'm in it for the fun I don't have the time or money to travel to big matches so the lack of local options is forcing me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted June 30, 2006 Share Posted June 30, 2006 I don't doubt that the mover is simple to set up. Heck, it's a target sliding. The hard part is making sure the mechanism is the same as at the Bianchi, do you build permanent walls or temporary barricades for the area that the target is exposed, etc. Don't get me wrong, if ANYONE in California, Arizona or Kansas/Missouri (KC area) shot the Bianchi on a regular basis, I would have a Cup gun by now. I've talked with a couple of known gunsmiths to build me a Cup Gun, but no one shoots it on a regular enough basis to warrant it. Heck, even when I lived in KC, it was a big, special occassion to go to the range where it's shot at. That shouldn't be the case. Dave, I appreciate your passion for the Cup. It was the first style of AP that I ever saw and I wanted to do it. Never found a club to do it. Found a ton of clubs that did IPSC/USPSA way back in the 90's (started in '96) and to date still haven't found anyone that does it regular enough to invest in the sport. By simplifying the match, I think it will provide more opportunities for shooters to do it. That's my opinion. Take it for what it's worth. Not every club has a Texas Star, but you don't need one to be good at it. The point of the star is to shoot and transition five times to get to the next target. Plate racks, swingers, etc. will accomplish this quite well. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Pistolero Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Rich, We currently use a canvas curtain on either end to hide the target. At one of the other clubs we use blue tarps. Most of the ranges that I go to have wooden barricades. A/P is shot atleast once a month at the Pioneer Gun Club in Kansas City. They have one of the biggest Regionals the first weekend in Oct. There are also matches in Springfield and Columbia. They also shoot it in Huchinson(sp?), KS I have seen the problem with new shooters trying A/P. We had a guy and his wife show up for a match and she was going to shoot. She overheard one of us make a remark about throwing one out of the X ring so she decided to come back the next day and shoot the USPSA match. She made the remark that she didn't think that she could hit the X ring so she didn't want to try. They left before any of us could convince them otherwise. The point is we were all once new shooters to the game. For me, it started in the fall of '97 at the last match of the year. I got my taste of it and then had to wait until Spring to shoot again. I've been shooting every match that I can find and get to ever since. In my opinion, anyone wanting to try A/P for the first time needs to shoot a 22 with a red dot. That's the cheapest way to get started. It also makes the match easier than using a stock Glock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Bastards! Of course they get a regular match going after I leave. I still have Warren's e-mail and promised him that I'd pick up one of his mounts. Anyways, you would think it'd be more popular, but it might be a function of folks just not having the patience to do it. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantJ Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Rich So does that mean you will be starting up Action Pistol at your local club in California? I have a brother their so I would have a place to stay when you run your regional. What dates would work for you? Oh, and I can bring one of Warren's mounts with me when I come, I have some here at home. GrantJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted July 1, 2006 Share Posted July 1, 2006 Grant, I'll make you a deal. Convince Uncle Sam to station an Army Flight Medic at Travis AFB, and you got a deal. I'll personally setup the entire match. That being said, I've got two more years to give to the big guy, so no AP match any time soon with me in the Golden State. I will though see about maybe working some locals that might want to do it though when I get back. The price of building the guns is brutal (Open). They're almost twice as expensive as IPSC open guns (see EGW and Gilmore). Either way, I'll inform when I report to Captain Crunch in Fort Living Room in 28 months! Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantJ Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Rich That seems to be a problem in California. As I understand it there are very few ranges that can handle AP matches. Without a facility it is hard to generate interest. I had the same problem back in NZ. I was the only one interested so had to make the best of what I had. We had two plate racks and a 45 yard range to set up Practical and Barricade. My Barricade was a portable one that I carried back to each distance. There was no mover. I did that for 10 years before we moved to Auckland where they had a complete setup. If you are keen enough you will find a way. In the mean time stay safe and keep your head down. We look forward to shooting with you in the future. "Thank you for your service, it keeps us all safe" GrantJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecutts Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 Huntington Beach Gun Club holds a AP match at: Prado Olympic Shooting Park 17501 Pamona Rincon Rd. Chino, CA., 91710 Phone: 909-597-4794 On the second Sunday's, they practice on the first Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantJ Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Davecutts Had you thought of running a regional. NRA offers a nice package with medals and discounts to the Bianchi Cup. The person to contact is Rudy in the competitions division at NRAHQ. I am sure there would be interest from other areas, it may be worth looking at. GrantJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Dave, Thanks for the info!!!! I've been trying to find a match so that I can either buy a buddy's old cup gun or have one built by Frank Glenn. I'll have to add y'alls match to my list of keep in minds when I'm home next time (this trip is for US3GN only). Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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