Case Separation In 9 Mm Major Open

[edwin garcia]

Hi all,

I shot our weekend match with a case separation event using my major 9 open.

Here's my specs:

• Pistol make: STI 2011 Slide/Frame, S2 Trubor, no hybrid holes.
  
• Ammo: MGB, 124 FMJ, OAL=1.150 "
  
• Powder: IMR 7625, 6.9 gr
  
• Primer:Remington 200 Small Rifle
  
• Brass: visually inspected, once fired, Winchester headstamp
  

My PF is around 168. The spent brass got stuck in the chamber and was not able to extract. I had to use a squib rod to push it out.

I just want to find out if anyone have had similar problems. Also would appreciate any suggestions, comments.

Another question, if I increase OAL would this alleviate increase pressure and mitigate this problem?

Thanks for your input in advance!

[George]

1.150" does sound a bit short in a 2011.

Loading longer will lower the initial pressure spike, but you will still need to add powder to get the PF back up after lengthening the round.

Most 2011 pattern guns can take 9x19 OAL's up to the 1.20" range depending on the bbl throat clearance for the bullet (freebore). Check this before just loading longer.

Make sure you aren't doing other bad things like over-crimping, or running bullets too large for the bore (.357" bullet in a .355" bore). These type of things can cause pressure spikes at otherwise safe power factors.

[edwin garcia]

Thanks for the input, George. With you mentioning about the crimping angle, I might look into that since I recently changed my crimping station settings.

Follow-up question. In your opininion/experience, how much can an overcrimped ammo contribute to a blown up case such as mine?

[Al Capizzo]

This is what makes me a little nervous about Major 9. Do you know for sure this was once fired brass (that means-did you shoot it yourself the first time) ?

I've had two complete seperations, where the head was actually ripped off the body of the cartridge, shooting in a TZ with a fully supported Bar-Sto barrel.

I've never had this happen with other calibers/cartridges.

In my case I'm suspecting it was from weak brass. Happened 2 x's in about 6,000 rounds.

I bought a .38 Super.

[Adam B]

I load mine to 1.165 and dont even bother to crimp it, I am shooting almost the exact same gun as you. here is my load and it makes major

Once fired brass, same head stamp

Winchester SRP

7.5 gr of True Blue

125gr .356 Zero JHP

[J.L. Hardy]

I have loaded and shot tens of thousands of rounds in 9 major loaded to 1.155 without a single problem using once fired brass ( I have never bought a new piece of brass for 9mm). This is what happens when you use powder that is too fast for a small case. 9 major is just like any of the other .355 calibers in an open gun you should use the slowest powder that will fit in the case to make major even if it is compressed. With fast powder all it takes is one weak piece of brass and you get this. Also, I never use Win brass. It seems to be thinner than fed or rem. We found that win brass would not hold the bullet. In some cases, after loading, the bullet could be twisted in the case by hand very easily. Using a U die solved most of this spinning bullet problem, but it still didn't cure the cause of this, which was thin case walls. The next question wil be what powder to use. The most readily available powder which is made specifically for small case capicity, open class Ipsc guns is VV 3n38. It is reccommended by Schumann ( who manufactures barrels) and SV who has been building race guns that run at high pressures. But again 3n38 was designed specifically for small capicity open guns, it is not a powder that has been adapted for this use. 9 major cannot be treated any differently than any other open caliber. You must choose correct powder and bullet combination and load carefully using quality components. The problem arises that some folks choose the 9 as a cost savings measure and follow that logic when making powder selections as well. Shooting open is not cheap and no one should follow the logic that cutting a few pennies per round or less is acceptable. The same negative propaganda that has been spouted about 9 major was stated about 40 S&W when folks started shooting it in limited. I think it is a fact that it is the most widely used caliber in limited and limited 10 now, and even a few open guns. Reloading is a process that must be taken on with a large measure of care to be safe. I've probably seen more 45acp with ruptured cases for various reasons than 40, 38 super and 9 combined. Good luck and be careful.

[bberkley]

I've just started shooting Major 9 this year, and am using once-fired (mostly from a Glock) brass of mixed headstamp.

My load is:

124gr MG

7.4gr N340

1.180 OAL

Winchester Small Pistol primer

.380 crimp (using Lee FCD)

Avg. 1386.2 fps

High Velocity 1388 fps

Low Velocity 1383 fps

Extreme Spread 5 fps

Avg. Deviation 1.4 fps

Standard Deviation 2 fps

I'm pretty anal about my brass now after years of loading .40 and 9mm for Glocks, and try to weed out stuff with headstamps I know cause me problems. I also case guage everything now, and that gives me a second once-over the brass before shooting the round. Rounds that have a severe "coke-bottle" look to it don't go in my gun. Period. Brass that has shear marks where extractors or something else has worked the rim over doesn't get used either.

[edwin garcia]

This is what makes me a little nervous about Major 9. Do you know for sure this was once fired brass (that means-did you shoot it yourself the first time) ?

I've had two complete seperations, where the head was actually ripped off the body of the cartridge, shooting in a TZ with a fully supported Bar-Sto barrel.

I've never had this happen with other calibers/cartridges.

In my case I'm suspecting it was from weak brass. Happened 2 x's in about 6,000 rounds.

I bought a .38 Super.

Al, you're right. My use of "once-fired" phrase is a misnomer. I got these brass from a buddy who works at a range. He picks-up mostly once fired brass from customers who buy their factory ammo in their shop. However, I cannot 100% verify it as a real deal oncec-fired brass .

I'm quite concerned, too, as he has experienced a similar situation recently.

he uses 9 mm major open and uses "once-fired" brass too.

I load mine to 1.165 and dont even bother to crimp it, I am shooting almost the exact same gun as you. here is my load and it makes major

Once fired brass, same head stamp

Winchester SRP

7.5 gr of True Blue

125gr .356 Zero JHP

Thanks, boynty77.

I'm thinking it might be the crimp of my ammo.

I'll also try to lengthen my OAL to your specs and see if it will work on my rig

I have loaded and shot tens of thousands of rounds in 9 major loaded to 1.155 without a single problem using once fired brass ( I have never bought a new piece of brass for 9mm). This is what happens when you use powder that is too fast for a small case. 9 major is just like any of the other .355 calibers in an open gun you should use the slowest powder that will fit in the case to make major even if it is compressed. With fast powder all it takes is one weak piece of brass and you get this. Also, I never use Win brass. It seems to be thinner than fed or rem. We found that win brass would not hold the bullet. In some cases, after loading, the bullet could be twisted in the case by hand very easily. Using a U die solved most of this spinning bullet problem, but it still didn't cure the cause of this, which was thin case walls. The next question wil be what powder to use. The most readily available powder which is made specifically for small case capicity, open class Ipsc guns is VV 3n38. It is reccommended by Schumann ( who manufactures barrels) and SV who has been building race guns that run at high pressures. But again 3n38 was designed specifically for small capicity open guns, it is not a powder that has been adapted for this use. 9 major cannot be treated any differently than any other open caliber. You must choose correct powder and bullet combination and load carefully using quality components. The problem arises that some folks choose the 9 as a cost savings measure and follow that logic when making powder selections as well. Shooting open is not cheap and no one should follow the logic that cutting a few pennies per round or less is acceptable. The same negative propaganda that has been spouted about 9 major was stated about 40 S&W when folks started shooting it in limited. I think it is a fact that it is the most widely used caliber in limited and limited 10 now, and even a few open guns. Reloading is a process that must be taken on with a large measure of care to be safe. I've probably seen more 45acp with ruptured cases for various reasons than 40, 38 super and 9 combined. Good luck and be careful.

J.L.,

Thanks for the eye openinng comment. May I ask what powder you use ?

Do you think IMR 7625 is faster burning than 3n38?

Thanks in advance!

[Radical Precision Designs]

I have loaded and shot tens of thousands of rounds in 9 major loaded to 1.155 without a single problem using once fired brass ( I have never bought a new piece of brass for 9mm). This is what happens when you use powder that is too fast for a small case. 9 major is just like any of the other .355 calibers in an open gun you should use the slowest powder that will fit in the case to make major even if it is compressed. With fast powder all it takes is one weak piece of brass and you get this. Also, I never use Win brass. It seems to be thinner than fed or rem. We found that win brass would not hold the bullet. In some cases, after loading, the bullet could be twisted in the case by hand very easily. Using a U die solved most of this spinning bullet problem, but it still didn't cure the cause of this, which was thin case walls. The next question wil be what powder to use. The most readily available powder which is made specifically for small case capicity, open class Ipsc guns is VV 3n38. It is reccommended by Schumann ( who manufactures barrels) and SV who has been building race guns that run at high pressures. But again 3n38 was designed specifically for small capicity open guns, it is not a powder that has been adapted for this use. 9 major cannot be treated any differently than any other open caliber. You must choose correct powder and bullet combination and load carefully using quality components. The problem arises that some folks choose the 9 as a cost savings measure and follow that logic when making powder selections as well. Shooting open is not cheap and no one should follow the logic that cutting a few pennies per round or less is acceptable. The same negative propaganda that has been spouted about 9 major was stated about 40 S&W when folks started shooting it in limited. I think it is a fact that it is the most widely used caliber in limited and limited 10 now, and even a few open guns. Reloading is a process that must be taken on with a large measure of care to be safe. I've probably seen more 45acp with ruptured cases for various reasons than 40, 38 super and 9 combined. Good luck and be careful.

+1 on the above.

9mm Major has the advantage that it can be loaded shorter than the .38 Super/Comp with a similar charge of powder for similar results. Pressure spikes can and will be caused to a higher degree by other factors more influential than overall cartridge lenght within the chamber.

Many of the actual case separations (very, very few) in 9mm I have been privvy to were caused by fast burning powders, a majority of them with the IMR 7625. It seems to be that this powder has a very narrow threshold margin to its "dangerous zone". I know some shooters swear by it, once a 'happy medium' has been achieved. But a good number of shooters swear at it instead when trying to duplicate loads suggested and used by others. "Erratic performance" between guns is not a trait I admire. Funny thing with VV 3n38 is that you can dip the 9mm case into it (definetely not recommended) and fill it completely (between 10.2 to 10.6 grains) then proceed to seat your bullet (115 - 124 gr.) all the way down, compressing it to around 1.165", use minimal crimp, and go make major acurately. My favorite load is 9.4 gr. VV 3n38 with Winchester 124 gr.FMJ, Winchester small rifle primers, at 1.165 with light crimp using once fired(?) nickel Speer, Federal or Winchester cases, chrono'ed at 1360 FPS. I've tried a few combinations of IMR 7625 and found a few to be 'somewhat' acceptable, but not better than the VV 3n38. Of course the IMR powder is a "lot" cheaper, which to me does not count in the ecuation.

My second choice for 9mm Major is HS-6. My third choice is Silhouette. IMR 7625 is not even in "my" list.

[Flexmoney]

J.L.,

On brass for 9 Major...

I have quite a few of the Federal brass that is marked "F C". Is this good to go? I know that Federal changed up thier 40 brass (the new stuff is now marked "FEDERAL") because of issue. I don't know if that carries over to their 9mm brass? How is yours marked?

[XRe]

Another question, if I increase OAL would this alleviate increase pressure and mitigate this problem?

Increasing OAL will help reduce the initial pressure spike that occurs before the bullet gets moving - but might require more powder to make the same PF, which could very well put you in similar circumstances. In general, a longer OAL gives you a little more safety margin. The gun still has to feed, too, so...

1.150" does sound a bit short in a 2011.

Pretty typical for 9 Major, from what I understand - 1.150-1.160" w/ SV mags or STI mags w/ spacers...

Most 2011 pattern guns can take 9x19 OAL's up to the 1.120" range

You meant 1.200", right??

The problem arises that some folks choose the 9 as a cost savings measure and follow that logic when making powder selections as well. Shooting open is not cheap and no one should follow the logic that cutting a few pennies per round or less is acceptable.

This is the one "big issue" I see w/ 9 Major. Most folks do it to shoot on the cheap, and buy so-called "once fired" brass - which means it's used brass that they don't know the history of. They do it seeking cost savings... and then they have the potential for this sort of failure. You won't hear me saying that 9 Major is unsafe. You will hear me saying that I think it's a poor cost savings measure to go about it that way.... If you know for certain that it's once fired brass (police range brass from a shop that only shoots new ammo, say...), you should be fine. Frankly, I think you'd be better off buying new 9mm brass, personally. Interesting that your second line above, JL, contradicts one of the big reasons to shoot 9 Major in the first place...

Reloading is a process that must be taken on with a large measure of care to be safe.

+1 - and especially so w/ fast(er) powders.

Edwin, 7625 is definitely faster than 3N38. Interestingly, though - I'm about to go to 7625 from 3N38 - but I'm shooting SuperComp. Reason is, 3N38 is pretty dirty in my gun with a 170-ish PF load, leavin unburned powder granules and lots of residue. 7625 isn't, and was 2nd best in my empirical testing I did for this gun, so.... Different cases have different requirements, of course In my loads, I used 2.4gr less 7625 to get to the same PF - and it's less dense, so that load filled the case to almost the same point as 3N38.

Also - one other thing that's not covered in this discussion is that if you're unsure of your brass, you might discard it after loading it only once or twice... How many times had that case been reloaded???

I shot many rounds of 9x21 loaded to 1.150" w/ 3N37 and 540 (HS-6) back in the day at old Major (w/ a 130gr or 135gr bullet), and never had any issues, but that was with good brass that had only been fired in my gun. To date, I've never even had a case split shooting SuperComp - I lose them before they wear out. I like that safety margin, personally....

Edited June 11, 2006 by XRe

[J.L. Hardy]

Dave, as stated above I have had very good results using once fired brass. I have never bought any new 9mm brass. I do use what I consider good stuff from a reliable source, and buy lots of it at a time. I do like 38 super comp as well, but as much as I shoot major lost brass matches, it was costing me about $800 per year just on brass. At local matches here in Georgia we shoot alot of rounds and I was lucky to get back half of the new comp brass I shot. SO, this means a considerable savings for me. This is the only cost savings related to the 9mm that can be realized, with the exception that you generally will save an insignificant amount of powder as well. Also the guns I use are designed around using the 9x19 and take advantage of the shorter OAL. Now that is not to say that 38 super comp won't work well in them, It just won't perform any better.

Edwin, I use SP2. When I run out of it I will use 3n38.

Flex, The stuff I use is stamped F C .

also, Loading out to 1.200 OAL leaves very little bullet for the case to hold on to. Sometimes this results in the bullet coming loose when it hits the feed ramp. This is why I use spacers in all mags regardless of whether they are SV or STI and load to 1.155.

[George]

Most 2011 pattern guns can take 9x19 OAL's up to the 1.120" range

You meant 1.200", right??

Yep, Doh!

Loading out to 1.200 OAL leaves very little bullet for the case to hold on to. Sometimes this results in the bullet coming loose when it hits the feed ramp. This is why I use spacers in all mags regardless of whether they are SV or STI and load to 1.155.

Hmmm, I think that not everyone does it that way. I have loaded 9x19 with a CP 135 RN out to 1.250" and it ran fine in 1911 pattern guns way back when the rules said 1.250" or no go for 9major.

Read more here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...t=0#entry412955

[AustinMike]

Most folks do it to shoot on the cheap, and buy so-called "once fired" brass - which means it's used brass that they don't know the history of. They do it seeking cost savings... and then they have the potential for this sort of failure. You won't hear me saying that 9 Major is unsafe. You will hear me saying that I think it's a poor cost savings measure to go about it that way.... If you know for certain that it's once fired brass (police range brass from a shop that only shoots new ammo, say...), you should be fine. Frankly, I think you'd be better off buying new 9mm brass, personally. Interesting that your second line above, JL, contradicts one of the big reasons to shoot 9 Major in the first place...

Guilty! I absolutely run 9mm for cost savings and flat out laziness because I'd rather not have to pick up brass at matches. Actually, it's not laziness so much as between setting up matches, helping with R.O. and score-keeping duties, resetting stages, etc., it's nice to have one less thing on my mind to distract from my shooting. I'm sure Dave thinks I'm quite insane (probably for many more reasons than my reloading practices. )

I buy "once-fired" brass and pick up some stuff on the range that people leave lay. I try to be cautious about it though. When I sort through the brass, it's not that tough IMO to pick out good cases to load to major. Apart from case defects like torn up rims, cracks, really flattened head stamps, etc., the primer and pocket tells a lot of the case's history. Obviously enlarged pockets, smeared or top hatted primers, etc. get tossed. I feel good about picking up brass that shooters leave around here from striker based guns. There aren't many (if any) open Glock shooters around here, so it's a good bet that the cases have only been exposed to minor loads. Of course, things like lots of extractor marks and other signs would indicate a lot of those loads!

I've loaded some cases a couple of times with my major load (currently 8.4gr. HS-6, WSR primer, 1.155" OAL, 125gr. Zero JHP) to see if the primer pocket loosens up and it doesn't appear to really. I've picked up plenty of range brass though with hellacious looking primers/pockets (scary what some people are running.) So, how do I know that the cases I use are once-fired? I don't. I inspect as best as I can and toss the blatant rejects. I keep an eye out for pressure signs with my loads. Is known once-fired or new brass safer? Maybe...maybe not. I've seen brand new brass crack myself and there have been reports that I've read, but can't verify, of things like case head separation. If you push the envelope with faster powders, it's false confidence to assume that known once-fired or new will never fail you (and I'm sure that's not what Dave was implying. )

I hear lots of folks saying that they buy new brass and it gets lost before it wears out. Frankly, I've been known to subscribe to that line of thinking myself with .45 brass - shoot it 'till it cracks or I lose it (that cartridge is an entirely different animal though.) There is uncertainty in this approach too. Even though it's from your own gun, I wonder how many shooters can say with certainty how many times each of their cases has been fired. Unless you only shoot with one batch at a time and cease using the cases at once before starting up a new batch, it would seem to me that it would be pretty hard to track case firings. If you assume that you'll lose it at a match before it becomes "dangerous", is that really that different than the "guessing" about case life that we once-fired niners do? No jabs intended, just food for thought.

I'm actually doing some experimentation myself now with 3N37 and N350 that I have on hand since they look to be slower than HS-6 (and single based.) I would like to use the slowest powder possible (that won't spill all over my press. )

OK...snappy comment repellant suit on...brace for impact!

[J.L. Hardy]

George, Lots of folks used the 135 gr round nose bullets to get the OAL longer. THAT"S because the bullet is Longer. The longer bullet leaves more for the case to hold on to just like I said. Use of the 135's and heavier bullets were the result of the rules requirement at the time and that folks had the issue of bullets coming loose when they loaded 125's out that long. I believe that this was the reason 9x19 didn't really catch on at the time, because the trend was moving to lighter bullets and more powder to work the comps and porting of the day. I still think that one could make up some nice loads using the 135's and even the 147's that are available now If folks didn't think they had to have bullet speeds equal to the speed of light.

[XRe]

Dave, as stated above I have had very good results using once fired brass.

I know you do - and I don't doubt it. Just relating my opinion on the matter My point was, if you're losing 7500 pieces of brass a year, $800 in brass costs is pretty minor next to the other cash you're expending to shoot the matches, travel, hotel, etc. I was just pointing out that you're telling people not to go cheap on their powder.... and you're going cheap on the cases... and it amuses me slightly

I do use what I consider good stuff from a reliable source, and buy lots of it at a time.

I think, like I said earlier, that this is the key to using non-new 9mm brass for this endeavor. If you know the source well, and you know what the brass has been through, then you can, in large part, control that variable of the equation. I personally get the heebie-jeebies about running rifle pressures in a pistol case I don't know the history of - that's for me, personally. It obviously works, and we obviously hear of very few of these sorts of occurences - it won't be the last, either.

For the record - I'm not saying that 9 Major is unsafe, or that it won't work, or anything of the sort (in fact, it shoots quite well in AustinMike's Mongoose). I have personal feelings about the practice of buying cheap used brass (especially off the Internet). That's all....

[XRe]

Actually, it's not laziness so much as between setting up matches, helping with R.O. and score-keeping duties, resetting stages, etc., it's nice to have one less thing on my mind to distract from my shooting. I'm sure Dave thinks I'm quite insane (probably for many more reasons than my reloading practices. )

Well, you do ride that two wheeled thingy.... Everything we do is a calculated risk - and it's everyone's decision to make those choices for themselves. You spend a lot more time on the backend inspecting and sorting your brass than I do (most of that gets done on the range as I'm picking it up...). I think you're appropriately cautious about what you use - and maybe I'm nuts, too, but I'd shoot your gun and loads without concern.

I've loaded some cases a couple of times with my major load (currently 8.4gr. HS-6, WSR primer, 1.155" OAL, 125gr. Zero JHP) to see if the primer pocket loosens up and it doesn't appear to really.

If you push the envelope with faster powders, it's false confidence to assume that known once-fired or new will never fail you (and I'm sure that's not what Dave was implying. )

Correct on both counts The only thing that you gain is an amount of margin for error (which of course gets diminished by playing with powders that have a fast pressure ramp up). New brass can have heat treat problems, or manufacturing problems that show up on the first or 2nd firing, resulting in various types of failures. Some cases will be better made than others, even when everything is done right, too, so... For the stuff we do, a thick case web and case walls really help out a bunch, and not everyone has that. I'm sure someone has sectioned a bunch of different 9mm cases and posted results somewhere - might be best to look for the stuff that matches that profile?? I don't know...

I hear lots of folks saying that they buy new brass and it gets lost before it wears out. ... There is uncertainty in this approach too. ... If you assume that you'll lose it at a match before it becomes "dangerous", is that really that different than the "guessing" about case life that we once-fired niners do?

Yes and no. I know I'm one of the folks who've told you that. Back in the day of old Major, I did a lifetime test on brand new .38 SuperComp brass, by marking 20 cases so that I could tell them apart. I shot them in practice and in matches, and tumbled them separately to keep them apart. I ended up losing all of them before one failed - the ones I lost last had 11 reloadings on them. That was a 182PF load of N350 w/ a 125gr bullet. So, I became very comfortable with the brass.

When I got back into the racegun thing this year, I nosed around some and found that the reputation on the brass hadn't changed, and, in fact, the design had been improved to have a thicker case web (and longer extractor groove). Combine that with a lower PF, and, well... you can see why I'd have confidence The longer case allows me to add in some additional margin for error, too. Also, I'm using one type of brass from on manufacturer, which reduces some of the inconsistencies... Is it false confidence, assuming Starline turns out consistent high quality brass??Maybe so... But that one's my gamble to make, and I'm pretty comfortable with it

Again, that's not to say that 9 Major is dangerous, unsafe, unreliable, etc, etc - just giving you the information I used to make my decision to trust my brass that completely.

Quick edit to add that, I've now put a grand total of 4000 .38 SC cases into play, and shot 40,000+ rounds in those cases - 35K of them at 182PF w/ N350 - and have not yet had a SuperComp case fail in any way (knock on wood). That includes 6 lost brass matches, so some of those cases had more loadings on them then others. I had similar lifetime in 9x21 at old Major w/ 130s. I'd bet 9x19 could do the same thing, with brass of the same quality - and given that, I'd probably follow the same practice if I shot a 9 Major gun, and buy new brass, and pick it back up, etc.... at least for Major loads.... And obviously, that's what works for me, so...

Edited June 11, 2006 by XRe

[edwin garcia]

Another question, if I increase OAL would this alleviate increase pressure and mitigate this problem?

Increasing OAL will help reduce the initial pressure spike that occurs before the bullet gets moving - but might require more powder to make the same PF, which could very well put you in similar circumstances. In general, a longer OAL gives you a little more safety margin. The gun still has to feed, too, so...

1.150" does sound a bit short in a 2011.

Pretty typical for 9 Major, from what I understand - 1.150-1.160" w/ SV mags or STI mags w/ spacers...

Most 2011 pattern guns can take 9x19 OAL's up to the 1.120" range

You meant 1.200", right??

The problem arises that some folks choose the 9 as a cost savings measure and follow that logic when making powder selections as well. Shooting open is not cheap and no one should follow the logic that cutting a few pennies per round or less is acceptable.

This is the one "big issue" I see w/ 9 Major. Most folks do it to shoot on the cheap, and buy so-called "once fired" brass - which means it's used brass that they don't know the history of. They do it seeking cost savings... and then they have the potential for this sort of failure. You won't hear me saying that 9 Major is unsafe. You will hear me saying that I think it's a poor cost savings measure to go about it that way.... If you know for certain that it's once fired brass (police range brass from a shop that only shoots new ammo, say...), you should be fine. Frankly, I think you'd be better off buying new 9mm brass, personally. Interesting that your second line above, JL, contradicts one of the big reasons to shoot 9 Major in the first place...

Reloading is a process that must be taken on with a large measure of care to be safe.

+1 - and especially so w/ fast(er) powders.

Edwin, 7625 is definitely faster than 3N38. Interestingly, though - I'm about to go to 7625 from 3N38 - but I'm shooting SuperComp. Reason is, 3N38 is pretty dirty in my gun with a 170-ish PF load, leavin unburned powder granules and lots of residue. 7625 isn't, and was 2nd best in my empirical testing I did for this gun, so.... Different cases have different requirements, of course In my loads, I used 2.4gr less 7625 to get to the same PF - and it's less dense, so that load filled the case to almost the same point as 3N38.

Also - one other thing that's not covered in this discussion is that if you're unsure of your brass, you might discard it after loading it only once or twice... How many times had that case been reloaded???

I shot many rounds of 9x21 loaded to 1.150" w/ 3N37 and 540 (HS-6) back in the day at old Major (w/ a 130gr or 135gr bullet), and never had any issues, but that was with good brass that had only been fired in my gun. To date, I've never even had a case split shooting SuperComp - I lose them before they wear out. I like that safety margin, personally....

Xre,

Man, thanks for the info. I felt like i had instant tech support chiming in their knowledge and experience(without outsourcing ).

I didn't realize that 7625 can be a faster burning powder. I have to consider the equation of reloading and components i'm currently using. Again, thanks foryour input.

Venry,

Thanks for your input. I know I've tried VV 3N38 before but went against it. I think I wasn't able to reach major loads using my current set-up. I might revisit that again soon.

JL,

Correct me if i'm wrong, is SP2 not available here in the US?

to all that i didn't mention: thanks! you guys sure pitched in a heck of a lot of

useful info. I wish I had this info sooner

[Chriss Grube]

Stick to 3n38 or hs-6 and you should be fine. I've got a boatload of rounds in 9major downrange and no problems.

[George]

George, Lots of folks used the 135 gr round nose bullets to get the OAL longer. THAT"S because the bullet is Longer. The longer bullet leaves more for the case to hold on to just like I said. Use of the 135's and heavier bullets were the result of the rules requirement at the time and that folks had the issue of bullets coming loose when they loaded 125's out that long.

The bullet profile choice is going to effect things too. The 124's in JHP can be loaded to longer than 1.18" easily and still get a grip whereas FMJ's at the the same weight may not be long enough to get gripped.

There is no one size fits all rule and almost anything can be made to work at whatever OAL you desire as long as some smarts are used in choosing the projectile shape. All the good and bad choices are not something that can be summed up in any one generality like saying that light bullets can't be loaded long, or that only heavy bullets can be loaded long (not exactly the same statements).

On another point made here, I do agree that HS6 is a very good choice for major nine loaded short compared to almost any other powder available.

[spd522]

I have been loading 9 Major for over a year now. I admit doing it for economics and simplicity of loading. My Open Para was originally a 38 Super but the hassles of running cases through the Case Pro and picking up brass whenever I could at club matches just got old. I ended up not shooting my Open gun much for several years because of it.

Last year, the Para got a new TruBore S2 chambered in 9mm. Since I already had a Para P18 9mm, I had mags that didn't require tuning.

I have two loads I use and each makes 171 PF, is very accurate, and hasn't given any indications of over pressure issues. In fact, I can shoot factory 9mm ball ammo and cannot tell a difference in the casehead or primer from my major loads.

I use:

7.4 gr Longshot OR 7.8 HS6

124 fmj Precision Delta bullets

WSR Primers

1.175 OAL

Mixed headstamp range brass from my old PD range.

I have never had a case separation or problem with this load extracting. I check the cases after cleaning and toss the obvious bad ones and ones with NPR or something like that head stamps as they always seem to have problems seating primers.

The rest get loaded and gauged and visually checked before going in the box. If something looks or fits wrong, I can catch it then and separate them from the good ones.

Maybe I have just been lucky so far but I sure am enjoying shooting Open again because of the change.

[basman]

I had the exact same casehead seperation. it came from a batch of brass that i bought from a company that i though was once fired. On closer inspection It turns out that there web site said "mostly" once fired! that is the only problem in about 6 k rounds. i shoot the brass 2x, once fired for matches and twice fired for range use. then it goes in the brass bucket or left on the range.

1.175 (for me at least) ensurses reliable feeding and works well with spacers in STI mags and also works in the one SV mag i have with no spacers.

I also use 7625, burns clean and the dot tracks stright up and down.

STI Trubor

7.1 gr

1.175 OAL

Zero 125gr JHP

Chronos at 170.

It is a compressed load and i use abot 3/4 turn of crimp (noticalbe line on the bullet head)

I really lke not scrounging for brass!

Edited June 11, 2006 by basman

[Harmon]

i stopped using 7625 after a primer let go.

i havent got to the case head level yet, and dont plan to.

[Chriss Grube]

Well lets see several casehead seperations from 2 different shooters, primer issue with same powder......gee maybe take the hint and switch the damn powder.

[Beethoven]

Stick to 3n38 or hs-6 and you should be fine. I've got a boatload of rounds in 9major downrange and no problems.

Power Pistol works well too. I have gone through about 4 pounds of it and i like it. It's pretty flashy but it shoots nice.