What Do We Want Revolver Division To Be?

[Carmoney]

Do we have a rule writer amongst us that can come up with draft rules that encompass what we've discussed here?

Remember--the more detailed the rule, the more potential ambiguity might be unintentionally written into it.

Take a look at the US Revo Division rules at US Appendix D10 in the rulebook.

My proposal is pretty simple: Eliminate Special Conditions 18 and 19 altogether. Leave everything else alone.

Does anybody see any problem with that?

[10mmdave]

I forced this thread back to the top because as I was spinning off my re-contoured barrel

to be replaced by a bone stock 610 barrel the act just didn't make sense !!

Here I am replacing a barrel because the rules are confusing ! Yes a whole bunch of you

here say it's no problem, shoot what you want, but you guys don't run the match or interpret

the rules. (well some of you do)

We heard differing opinions and flat out contradiction of what's what, it will only get worse, not better.

And as someone said, let's get it fixed now before it gets worse.

We're a great bunch of guy/gals and I believe we shoot for the pure enjoyment of shooting.

Throw in a 30+ round COF with 3 or 4 ways to shoot it and we salivate waiting for our turn to

blaze to glory or crash and burn, either way at the "unload and make clear" we usually had a ball

doing it. (although we may not seem like it)

We don't need separate divisions in revo, we need to clean up the rules so there are no issues.

(somebody said that too)

Leave it as a 6 shooters only game (sorry ICORE 8 shot guy's, I feel for you but there is L10)

Clean up the replacement barrel rule, as many have stated here, you don't care what's spun onto the

frame, so put it in the rules. Re-write the rule and let all those PPC and Pin Gun folks be able to play

If the Revo division continues to grow as it has, the debates of Ti cylinders, crane ball locks, steel barrels

on stainless steel frames, whatever, will continue until the powers that be say "screw it, make it like

production". And ya know, if that's what everybody wants then fine, but the poll shows that's not the case.

So what do we do now ??

[Carmoney]

Dave--see my post above.

Would not that handle the problem??

[10mmdave]

Do we have a rule writer amongst us that can come up with draft rules that encompass what we've discussed here?

Remember--the more detailed the rule, the more potential ambiguity might be unintentionally written into it.

Take a look at the US Revo Division rules at US Appendix D10 in the rulebook.

My proposal is pretty simple: Eliminate Special Conditions 18 and 19 altogether. Leave everything else alone.

Does anybody see any problem with that?

Sounds close Mike, but rule 17 was brought up in my discussion with John A,

remove "except prototypes" in section 17 and maybe even the "OFM" part ??

Below are the rules straight out of the rule book for all to review if you want.

US APPENDIX D10 US Revolver Standard Division

1 Minimum power factor for Major 165

2 Minimum power factor for Minor 125

3 Minimum bullet weight No

4 Minimum bullet caliber / cartridge case length 9mm (0.354”) / 19mm (0.748”)

5 Minimum bullet caliber for Major No

6 Minimum trigger pull (see Appendix F2) No

7 Maximum handgun size No

8 Maximum magazine length Not applicable

9 Maximum ammunition capacity No, Maximum of 6 fired before reload.

10 Max. distance of handgun and speed loaders from torso 50mm

11 Rule 5.2.3.1 applies Yes

12 Restriction on position of holster and other equipment No

13 Optical/electronic sights permitted No

14 Compensators permitted No

15 Ports permitted No

Special conditions:

16. No limit on cylinder capacity, however, a maximum of 6 rounds to be fired

before reloading. A competitor who fails to comply with any of the requirements

above will be subject to Rule 6.2.5.1

(Rule 6.2.5.1: However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements

of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available,

otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

17. Any complete revolver (or a revolver assembled from components), produced

by an OFM and available to the general pubic (except prototypes) is permitted.

18. Modifications such as weights or other devices to control and/or to reduce

recoil are prohibited.

19. Modifications which are permitted are limited to:

19.1 Replacement of, or modification to, sights, hammers and cylinder releases;

19.2 Replacement barrels, provided the barrel length is the same as the OFM standard;

19.3 Cosmetic enhancements which do not give a competitive advantage (e.g. plating,

checkering of frames, custom grips);

19.4 Modifications to the cylinder to accept “Moon Clips”.

20. “Self-loading” revolvers with retractable slides are prohibited in this Division.

Dave--see my post above.

Would not that handle the problem??

Now see my post Mike, I was writting as you were posting

And then I wrote some more

[Nemo]

Master Car$’s proposal is simple, short and sweet, and I agree. However, if we definitely have to have a Permitted Mods section, this is what I propose:

1 thru 15 are OK. However, I’ve never seen enforcement of No.10 (Max distance of handguns and “speed loaders”(?) from torso.) and would like to see it gone. Is there competitive advantage to have the gun or ammo carriers (not only speed loaders) further away from the body? I think it would only help to get caught on props and make tough shooting positions just impossible, e.g prone.

Let’s keep going…

Special Conditions:

16. OK

17. OK

18. DELETE

19. Modifications permitted are limited to:

19.1 Replacement of, or modification to, barrels, sights, hammers, cylinders, cylinder releases and grips.

19.2 DELETE

19.3 DELETE

19.4 DELETE, covered in 19.1

19.5 (by me) Internal modifications such as action works or modifications to frames (crane ball detent, et.al) to enhance reliability are allowed.

20. OK

Again, the change to No.19 would be only if we definitely have to keep the mods section, if not we can get rid of 18 and 19 in full, like the Counselor said.

Watcha’ll think?

p.s. Sorry if I'm redundant with 10mil, we were posting at the same time.

Edited June 15, 2006 by Nemo

[pskys2]

Like Chuck, I'm primarily an IDPA shooter, although I've been shooting USPSA Revolver for our local matches for two or three years. This weekend's Area Three will be the first major USPSA match I've shot with a roundgun.

I like the challenge of trying to figure out the stage in 6 round increments - probably the same reason most of us shoot revolvers in what my wife calls a "masochistic exercise." We need to minimize the restrictions on the division, as enumerated by several others in this thread. We definitely don't want to do the same thing IDPA did and split the smallest division.

Jerry

Good Luck, I'm shooting on Sunday. If you're out there on Sunday look for the Revo Squad, we've got 5 of 6 with Revo's in our squad.

Dave

[hdgun]

1-16 OK

17-shoot what you brought

the end

[Gary Stevens]

Jeff,

I don't care a bit to champion this for you guys, but I just want a clear concise list of what you want from as many of you as possible.

When the arrows and rocks start flying, I like as much company as possible.

Gary

[hopalong]

Gary Stevens,

I was informed you asked.......and it is important enough that I drop in.

Equipment........................Make it like the Limited Division, 500+ of a model and it is good to go.

Aftermarket replacement parts.................OK

Modifcations............................................OK

NO OPTICS.........(like now)

NO PORTS, COMPS or any other recoil device of similar type (like now)

7 & 8 shooters allowed, but mandantory reload after 6 shots (like now)

Minimum caliber for Major PF......38/357

Holster rules OK as they are.

Since I have your attention.

Could you see what can be done to the Classifier Data Base?

Revolvers are so different from any of the self feeding pistols that it is not right to even compare classifaction data to each type.

The only GM in Revolver Division is MR. MICULEK.....and well deserved.

USPSA deems it that when a major match marks that the match score go in as a classifier, and he's there he gets the 100%....again well deserved, he did win.

BUT !!!!!

If you take all those 100% away and use his results from just classifiers he has an average of 89%+/-.

THE BEST in the WORLD and when compared to the Limited division, just barely a master???????

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT PICTURE?????

Our own president called them "silly guns" on National Television, what does that do to the guy who is interested in our sport (USPSA) and all he has is his trusty 686 to start with????

Revolver Division is experiencing an obvious interest,(and growing pains) Let's not regulate it so much that only the true enthusiasts will want to participate.

Thanks for your help.

SAM KEEN

[Barrettone]

Jeff,

I don't care a bit to champion this for you guys, but I just want a clear concise list of what you want from as many of you as possible.

When the arrows and rocks start flying, I like as much company as possible.

Gary

I am with Nemo on everything EXCEPT, that I would make it a "run what ya brung" division by deleting 17 altogether as Hdgun has said. OFM criteria just smacks too much of production. What possible "prototype" revolver that shoots six shots could possibly overcome the deficit of shooting revolver??? None IMHO.

Jeff

[Barrettone]

Gary Stevens,

I was informed you asked.......and it is important enough that I drop in.

Equipment........................Make it like the Limited Division, 500+ of a model and it is good to go.

Aftermarket replacement parts.................OK

Modifcations............................................OK

NO OPTICS.........(like now)

NO PORTS, COMPS or any other recoil device of similar type (like now)

7 & 8 shooters allowed, but mandantory reload after 6 shots (like now)

Minimum caliber for Major PF......38/357

Holster rules OK as they are.

Since I have your attention.

Could you see what can be done to the Classifier Data Base?

Revolvers are so different from any of the self feeding pistols that it is not right to even compare classifaction data to each type.

The only GM in Revolver Division is MR. MICULEK.....and well deserved.

USPSA deems it that when a major match marks that the match score go in as a classifier, and he's there he gets the 100%....again well deserved, he did win.

BUT !!!!!

If you take all those 100% away and use his results from just classifiers he has an average of 89%+/-.

THE BEST in the WORLD and when compared to the Limited division, just barely a master???????

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT PICTURE?????

Our own president called them "silly guns" on National Television, what does that do to the guy who is interested in our sport (USPSA) and all he has is his trusty 686 to start with????

Revolver Division is experiencing an obvious interest,(and growing pains) Let's not regulate it so much that only the true enthusiasts will want to participate.

Thanks for your help.

SAM KEEN

+1

I agree with what Sam says about the classification business. We NEED a baseline of the top 10 shooters in revolver. They don't need to be GM's necessarily. Lets face it...Jerry is a freak of nature, and definitely the exception and NOT the rule (damn he's good!!!...and as Sam says...well deserved). Can't we just have his numbers, combined with the top 9 master class shooters classifier averages added up and divided by 10 to acheive the HHF? (similar to how they use the top 10 GM's for other divisions). As of now, the "99 series" classifiers are based as 10% lower than limiteds HHF's. The "03 series" are a whopping 30% higher, and Lord only knows what they cooked up for the 06's!!!

We need to be judged by our peers in our own division, and not by being bastardized and spun-off from the limited guys. It could easily be done as I outlined above. Sure, Jerry will score 115% or higher on most classifiers, but there are freaks of nature in other divisions that do the same thing. Why can't we be like all the other divisions when it comes to classification? My gut feeling is, that everybody thought that revolver was going to go away, but we are a fiesty bunch, and now things are growing. We have more practicing master class guys now than ever before, and are gaining ground. Please help us fix this enigma. We want to grow and be recognized as a real division, not locked in a closet!!!

Thanks,

Jeff

Edited June 18, 2006 by Barrettone

[Bill Nesbitt]

Gary,

My vote is shoot six and reload.

Some guy has an old PPC gun in the safe: it's OK.

Some guy has a personal defense revolver that has had the barrel cut back to a non standard length: he's OK.

Some guy put an 8 blue inch barrel on a 625: he's OK.

Some guy has a titanium cylinder: he's OK.

I question the 500 produced limit. Remember a few years ago when S&W was making the gun of the week? Also Performance Center stuff. It could be possible that somebody bought a gun off a dealer's shelf that wouldn't have had 500 of that exact model built.

I don't care what you hang off it or what you cut off, it's still shoot six and reload.

Long live the Revolution.

[Gary Stevens]

Well I'll say this, the "shoot 6 and reload" sure makes it simple to write and administer. Of course that would mean no optics and comps, but that is understood.

I'll talk to Dave about the classification data since he is much more familiar with it than I am. To be honest, that stuff makes my head hurt

Gary

Edited June 18, 2006 by Gary Stevens

[R112mercer]

Gary;

Thanks for your attention on this topic, the folks in Area 5 are lucky to have you. I'm in the "closer to Limited, shoot six and reload" camp. Anything else (except ports, comps, and optics) is fine by me. If a guy wants to run an 8.5" barrel as thick as a coffee can, have at it. If you'd like something a little more rules savvy to bring before the BOD I'd go with Mike Carmoney's alterations (listed above). Thanks again for your time.

[Gary Stevens]

As to the "prototype", what could such a revolver be? Assuming we keep the shoot 6 load 6 language. Inquiring minds want to know.

If someone built a revolver that in essence had the barrel inverted, with the exit hole on the bottom and the underlug on the top, and somehow made it fire, would that be a big deal? It sure would be a prototype I think.

Gary

[hdgun]

As to the "prototype", what could such a revolver be? Assuming we keep the shoot 6 load 6 language. Inquiring minds want to know.

If someone built a revolver that in essence had the barrel inverted, with the exit hole on the bottom and the underlug on the top, and somehow made it fire, would that be a big deal? It sure would be a prototype I think.

Gary

I am not going to speak for others but, NO, if thats what a guy or gal want to shoot, be my guest. I hate to keep repeating, The thing with revolver is the six rounds reload shoot,

do it again concept. So, other than the obviouse no comps, no dots, its pretty easy. Shoot what you brought.

I dont think there is any thing you could do to a revolver that would change the way a stage is shot with the six round limit, or change a shooters ability to shoot said stage.

Edited June 19, 2006 by hdgun

[AzShooter]

Change the wording a little so that it doesn't become 6 shot, reload six shot mandatory. Six shot max before a reload would be better otherwise you will shoot six in an eight shot array, have to reload for two then go to the next position with only four rounds left in the gun before you must reload again.

Wording can be a tricky thing.

[Gary Stevens]

Noted, but I think everyone understands that it is the "maximum" number of shots you can fire, not that you have to shoot 6 prior to any reload.

I think the present wording is clear and sufficient for any furture venture in this area.

It seems to me that the current wording of shooting a maximum of 6 prior to a reload is the most important part of the division, followed by no comps and optics.

Gary

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I see the equipment race starting and the division going to hell. Revolver division was for stock production guns with basic action enhancements and sight changes. I now have a vision of all types of strange things with a cylinder on them with the excuse "Hey it's a revolver see the cylinder???"

Many have said that barrel modifications make no difference and give no advantage, that lightening makes no difference. If that is the case, it will make no difference if you can not do them. If you are trying to justify what you wish to do, there are several divisions that are available where you can add just about anything you want.

Do what you want to this but it is really going to end up a mess. If you want a revolver division, go to a shop and see what a real revolver is. Then get the action tuned and go to the range. If you want to shoot open buy a space gun. If you want to ruin the revolver division keep going in the direction you are headed.

This whole thread has gone down hill fast IMHO

Good-by

Edited June 19, 2006 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[hdgun]

I see the equipment race starting and the division going to hell. Revolver division was for stock production guns with basic action enhancements and sight changes. I now have a vision of all types of strange things with a cylinder on them with the excuse "Hey it's a revolver see the cylinder???"

Many have said that barrel modifications make no difference and give no advantage, that lightening makes no difference. If that is the case, it will make no difference if you can not do them. If you are trying to justify what you wish to do, there are several divisions that are available where you can add just about anything you want.

Do what you want to this but it is really going to end up a mess. If you want a revolver division, go to a shop and see what a real revolver is. Then get the action tuned and go to the range. If you want to shoot open buy a space gun. If you want to ruin the revolver division keep going in the direction you are headed.

This whole thread has gone down hill fast IMHO

Good-by

IMHO, revoler is an ability race, not an equipment race.

[Barrettone]

I see the equipment race starting and the division going to hell. Revolver division was for stock production guns with basic action enhancements and sight changes. I now have a vision of all types of strange things with a cylinder on them with the excuse "Hey it's a revolver see the cylinder???"

Many have said that barrel modifications make no difference and give no advantage, that lightening makes no difference. If that is the case, it will make no difference if you can not do them. If you are trying to justify what you wish to do, there are several divisions that are available where you can add just about anything you want.

Do what you want to this but it is really going to end up a mess. If you want a revolver division, go to a shop and see what a real revolver is. Then get the action tuned and go to the range. If you want to shoot open buy a space gun. If you want to ruin the revolver division keep going in the direction you are headed.

This whole thread has gone down hill fast IMHO

Good-by

Sorry Round Gun Shooter, but I have to (respectfully) disagree with your comments. What we are trying to do is ELIMINATE controversy, and make it a very basic ruleset, so we do not have disharmony when it comes to equipment. Additionally, we want to bring MORE SHOOTERS into the fold by making their equipment legal, whereas it currently is not. Bottom line, is that this is about growing the division, not fragmenting it. The only other way to bring these new people in would be to have 3 seperate revolver divisions, and we simply cannot justify that YET. The "shoot six and reload", and "no comps or optics" policy/rule would insure that there isn't any way to really make a "space revolver". You simply cannot overcome the 6 shot disadvantage with a gimmick.

I'll give you an example...How many single-stack open guns do you see shooting in open division anymore??? This is my point exactly...nobody shoots 'em anymore because they aren't competitive. The amount of rounds the magazine can hold nullifies the guns ability to be an advantage. The same would hold true in revolver division IMHO (inversely, of course). Lets go to the extreme...A guy could somehow fashion a speed strip with 3 loaded cylinders on it that feeds crossways through the gun, but it would handle like crap (ergonomics), and they still would have to feed the cylinders through...you could do a reload quicker. It may sound like a silly idea, but you do have to address it. I understand your concerns, but I really think we get the most positive return for revolver division by going the "Limited Gun" route. Just trying to shed a little light on the bigger picture here.

Edited June 19, 2006 by Barrettone

[Carmoney]

If you are shooting a stock 625 or 25-2 with a chamfer and a nice action, and somebody is beating you, it is NOT because he has a "trick gun."

Every effort to modify the basic package comes with an offsetting cost of some sort. Lighten up the action too much and you get poor trigger rebound and occasional light primer hits. Put on a Ti cylinder to slightly reduce torque and you get slightly more recoil because the whole gun's lighter. Lighten the barrel to improve handling and you increase felt recoil. Make the barrel heavier to reduce muzzle flip and now it's sluggish in transitions.

For IPSC/USPSA shooting, there is nothing that works better (so far) than a basic 625 or 25-2 that you can buy for $500 or less. Once you accept this, you're no longer concerned about people trying all the various "trick" stuff and you're just glad they're there to shoot with!

[10mmdave]

Gary,

My vote is shoot six and reload.

Some guy has an old PPC gun in the safe: it's OK.

Some guy has a personal defense revolver that has had the barrel cut back to a non standard length: he's OK.

Some guy put an 8 blue inch barrel on a 625: he's OK.

Some guy has a titanium cylinder: he's OK.

I question the 500 produced limit. Remember a few years ago when S&W was making the gun of the week? Also Performance Center stuff. It could be possible that somebody bought a gun off a dealer's shelf that wouldn't have had 500 of that exact model built.

I don't care what you hang off it or what you cut off, it's still shoot six and reload.

Long live the Revolution.

I'd be worried about that 500 number also.

How many 5 inch 610's were built ?? I've heard as low as 300 and as high as 4000 ??

I think the 4 inch version was below 400 also.

And Sorry Gary but I have to agree with Barretone, we may see some funky guns in revo

IF the rule changes take place but IMO we are not hurting the division, if anything we are

making it what most here assumed it was in the first place.

My 2 cents, that's all.

[hdgun]

Gary,

My vote is shoot six and reload.

Some guy has an old PPC gun in the safe: it's OK.

Some guy has a personal defense revolver that has had the barrel cut back to a non standard length: he's OK.

Some guy put an 8 blue inch barrel on a 625: he's OK.

Some guy has a titanium cylinder: he's OK.

I question the 500 produced limit. Remember a few years ago when S&W was making the gun of the week? Also Performance Center stuff. It could be possible that somebody bought a gun off a dealer's shelf that wouldn't have had 500 of that exact model built.

I don't care what you hang off it or what you cut off, it's still shoot six and reload.

Long live the Revolution.

I'd be worried about that 500 number also.

How many 5 inch 610's were built ?? I've heard as low as 300 and as high as 4000 ??

I think the 4 inch version was below 400 also.

And Sorry Gary but I have to agree with Barretone, we may see some funky guns in revo

IF the rule changes take place but IMO we are not hurting the division, if anything we are

making it what most here assumed it was in the first place.

My 2 cents, that's all.

Currently there is no 500 limit on revolver

[10mmdave]

Currently there is no 500 limit on revolver

Did you read the above posts (I believe it refers to "adding" the 500 clause)

Still high after those 2 wins of your's eh Johhny

Dave "Beat by John Sardinia again" Parker