No Shoot Madness

[Jim Norman]

Does the name Amadue Deallo (Spelling highly questionable here) ring any bells?

BTW, I think Ii would be fantastic if all USPSA targets took three hits and then fell and all USPSA NS targets took one hit and then fell.

Think of the cost and it is obvious why we don't do that. There are target stands that have a steel plate and a hinge that will cause a target to fall when the plate is struck. Only targets that have fallen are scored. You can set up a COF where all the shoots have a small center of mass plate and all NS have a larger plate. The shoot targets and the NS targets are all coveres with a T-shirt or other covering. No need for A,B,C,or D scoring, if it is standing you missed, unless it is a NS then you lose.

But that is not USPSA and it is not how we lay this Game.

As a compromise, I would suggest as others have, that IF a NS covers more than one target, that the number of counted hits increase to equal the number of hits required on teh covered targets. If there is only one taret covered, then the number of counted hits on the NS be equal to the number or required hits onteh single covered target.

While not perfect, it eliminates certain scoring inequities in the current rule. We've all seen the diagram where on an array where there are multiple targets and NS's that thwo shooters get the same number of holes punched in their cardboard in the same time with the same number of earned pooints, but because of hte rule one shooter is penalized very heavy while hte other only gets two penalties.

Jim (See I can be reasonable) Norman

[John Heiter]

Where do you guys shoot that you have all these "bad guys" at your range? Most of the folks at my local range are nice people and all we ever shoot at are cardboard and steel targets.

Sorry, there's just no good Smiley for "stirring the pot"

[Loves2Shoot]

Where do you guys shoot that you have all these "bad guys" at your range? Most of the folks at my local range are nice people and all we ever shoot at are cardboard and steel targets.

Sorry, there's just no good Smiley for "stirring the pot"

... What do you think is under the berms? ...

[SmittyFL]

To: Jim (See I can be reasonable) Norman

I concede.

Shannon (I really agree with your original point of view, I just had a few minutes to kill while goofing off at work) Smith

[shred]

Heck, if we were going to be practical, any NS hit would immediately DQ you from the match. That would be zero fun.

[Bigbadaboom]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, IPSC/USPSA is a competitive shooting sport, not a combat training scenario. If I shoot some good guy while shooting a bunch of B.G.'s there ain't going to be some person who counts the hits and penalizes me per hit. I'm getting in just as much trouble for 5 hits as I am for 2.

[chuckw]

If we are only gong to count to NS hits, why do we allow a Per Shot penalty to be applied for the shooters toe touching the ground outside a fault line?

That's not true. If you fault a line to shoot at 3 poppers, and you fire 6 times, you only get 3 penalties.

[Shooter Grrl]

If we are only gong to count to NS hits, why do we allow a Per Shot penalty to be applied for the shooters toe touching the ground outside a fault line?

That's not true. If you fault a line to shoot at 3 poppers, and you fire 6 times, you only get 3 penalties.

That's not entirely true either ChuckW. The RO can assess ONE penalty for a foot fault if no real advantage was gained. So to answer JIM's question - the rules don't allow for a per shot penalty for a foot fault. The rules allow for a per shot penalty for gaining an advantage.

[mpolans]

+1 for not limiting no-shoot penalties to two shots.

[Jim Norman]

It is true that the foot fault analogy is somewhat loose as you are correct Kath that the assesment is either one or per shot up to the number of required hits if there is an advantage gained. However, I made it since if the WSB states that a pershot penalty will be assesed per shot fired for faulting, a newbie could have the tip of his toe faulting and get the penalties. Actually any of us could, but this discussion is somewhat centered around a rule that may or may not have its origins in the "lets be nice to the new shooter and not hurt their feelings since they can not be expected to blaze through a COF like some of us while not hitting a NS". So I used that analogy.

I agree that it would be nice if all targets fell down when hit twice, all NS droped to the ground at the sound of the first shot and all hard cover reqally was. Heck I hit a piece of fence that was taped up yesterday, the bullet went clean through with out stopping and punched a hole in the cardboard. score? Alpha-Mike. Fence is supposedly hard cover.

Since this is a sport and we do keep score and the targets don't shoot back and it isn't training for anything other than itself...

How about one NS hit per target. -40 points?

OR

How about one NS hit per required scoring hit on adjacent targets? Cover three targets with one NS and the COF says 4 hits per target, count up to 12 NS hits on that Target?

Parity.

Jim (too tired to think up a good insert here besides I don't want to have to pay a royalty to the Jerry the Geek for doing this) Norman

[Bigbadaboom]

I think no-shoots should be scored just like shoot-targets. -10 for an "A" hit, -5 for a "B"/"C" hit, and -3 for a "D" hit. Only two hits on paper score. No-shoot steel hit should be -20.

Daniel (I like hose-fest stages where I don't have to worry about penalty targets) Cook

[Vlad]

Sorry, there's just no good Smiley for "stirring the pot"

How is this: ?

[chuckw]

That's not entirely true either ChuckW. The RO can assess ONE penalty for a foot fault if no real advantage was gained.

That sounds fair - thanks for clearing that up for me. This is why we should stick to the current 2 NS rule coz it's balanced and simple to understand.

[Jim Norman]

Simple is:

Count all the required (read that REQUIRED) hits on the shoots and all (read that as ALL) the hits on targets that are not supposed to get any hits at all on them.

That is simple.

Jim Norman

[johnhurd]

Then the masses would not have anythig to mull......................

[randyb]

I just don't get what all the fuss is about. If it takes 2 shots to kill a bad guy, it takes two shots to kill a hostage. Now THAT's simple as it gets. Why count more shots on the hostage if he's standing in front of 4 bad guys? Either two shots kills him or they don't.

Leave the rule the hell alone!

[GeorgeInNePa]

I just don't get what all the fuss is about. If it takes 2 shots to kill a bad guy, it takes two shots to kill a hostage. Now THAT's simple as it gets. Why count more shots on the hostage if he's standing in front of 4 bad guys? Either two shots kills him or they don't.

Leave the rule the hell alone!

Why? It's a new (recent) rule, it's not too late to switch back.

[Jim Norman]

Randy, I have to agree here with George. Up until the last couple years we did count al lthe NS hits. [edit] It has changed how the game is played.

This game is NOT all about the top shooters at a match. At our local club we had for a couple years a group of C Class Production shooters that couldn't have cared less how the top guys did. Their match was between the 4 of the and the un-counted NS did change the game.

Anyway, it is a new rule, about 2 years old, same as the no inverted target rule. Both should be dropped from the USPSA Rulebook.

Jim Norman

Edited May 16, 2006 by Flexmoney

[ima45dv8]

As far as counting just 2, or all of the NS hits, I wouldn't care one way or the other except it has caused us to incorporate that painful rule of scoring and taping between strings of most classifiers. I've been to a lot of matches where this just isn't happening.

We should revert to counting all NS hits if for no other reason than to have greater consistency in how classifiers are scored.

[randyb]

[edit]

I'm sticking with the idea that 2 hits is enough to stop a bad guy or a hostage and it doesn't make any sense to count one more than the other.

Edited May 16, 2006 by Flexmoney

[Neil Beverley]

[edit]

However, I would like to say that I've been shooting IPSC 20 years and from the very start of my involvement I shot both HG and SG. From the onset (for SG) I have only known 2 penalties to count on a paper target. With OO buck it would be stupid to count 9 hits for 1 pulled (mistaken) shot.

I certainly promoted, supported and implemented the rule for SG long before other people put it forward for HG adoption as well. This was entirely coincidental.

Edited May 16, 2006 by Flexmoney

[Jim Norman]

[edit]

As to not counting all the hits from OO buck, I think that if you blast a target and put 9 pellets in to a NS, you should get the penalty, You are supposed to know where your shots are going, ALL OF THEM. If you don't, you should not be taking the shot. Or you should be shooting slower so that you can control your shooting.

As usual, my opinion.

Jim Norman

Edited May 16, 2006 by Flexmoney

[johnhurd]

In another life, my name might well have been Jim..............

[Jim Norman]

Where do you guys shoot that you have all these "bad guys" at your range? Most of the folks at my local range are nice people and all we ever shoot at are cardboard and steel targets.

Sorry, there's just no good Smiley for "stirring the pot"

John,

Call them bad guys, NS's or Hostage Targets, or any other title. We know what we are talking about.

As to the term bad guys, if you hit one, it is bad for your score for that stage.

Now, to all that say that USPSA isn't training....

Yes it is! For USPSA matches

Jim Norman

[Neil Beverley]

As to not counting all the hits from OO buck, I think that if you blast a target and put 9 pellets in to a NS, you should get the penalty, You are supposed to know where your shots are going, ALL OF THEM. If you don't, you should not be taking the shot. Or you should be shooting slower so that you can control your shooting.

As usual, my opinion.

Jim Norman

Jim

This isn't a very logical approach. What would you score by way of penalties if the shooter used 12 ball buck, or even 27 ball? Same crime different penalty. And from a practical point of view to score 9 hits is crazy.

Hell, even Jim Norman agrees with me! He wrote two years ago:

BTW, as for Shotgun counting only two hits when buckshot is used, I don't have a real problem as we are firing a multiple protectile load and we limit the hit count to two.(Here we actually require 4 and count the high two, less than 4 is a miss) Just like Powerfactors in Rifle and Pistol are different, Scoring between the firearms systems can be different as can the targets used. We don't use clays for handgun afetall.

Jim Norman