Insecure People...

[spook]

Man, I've started Brazilian Jiu Jutsu three weeks ago. I Love it. It's great to gain some energy by totally wearing yourself out. I found a great school with a very nice and good teacher (he's been training with Carlson Gracie since he was 8, for those that care ). The second guy in line (who also teaches some classes) is a purple (almost brown) belt. I got a really weird vibe from this guy the moment I saw him. He seemed very insecure and like he had a big ego.

So today was my fifth class and he asked if I wanted to roll with him. Well, the first round I made him tap with an armbar. I was having fun and was rolling in a very relaxed manner. I was kind of afraid to put the armbar on him and was very careful not to hurt him. He was mad at himself and yelled stuff I'd rather not write down here

So now we I notice he wakes up and gets serious (probably because the teacher was watching us while I made him tap). He gets me in an armlock and I tap and yell "TAP". Unfortunately he puts the armlock on in a very agressive fast manner and I feel someting inside my elbow go "pop". It didn't break, but it sure as hell didn't feel right, and it still doesn't feel right (it hurts when I practice my reloads).

I was kind of mad (and also disappointed, because I thought someone who has the skills to own me all day long would not be so pathetic to try and dominate a 5 lesson old white belt for making him tap).

I told him he could have ruined my arm for life. He apologized and told me he had a crappy weekend and is in a crappy mood. I tell him that's still no reason to kill my arm. He apologizes again.

So now I'm disappointed and get dressed and ready to leave for home. The teacher walks up to me and gives me some advice about taking care of my elbow (he didn't see it happen). All the guys in the group were great about it, and told me this guy is kind of moody.

The guy walks up to me again and says he's really ashamed and really sorry. I tell him it's okay, and say next time he is in a bad mood, he should tell me so I will not roll with him (though I'm thinking about never rolling with this guy again ever in my life).

Why is it people act this way? I love to see the guys on my shooting range improve and actually encourage them if they kick my ass.

I really want to learn this Brazilian Jiu Jitsu stuff and like the rest of the guys (they're all very laid back guys).

Well, I just had to let that out...

[tightloop]

I hope it does not interfer with your shooting.....

[AlamoShooter]

Its part of what you need to learn. Some times how 'Not to act'. The guy may have made lots of improvment off of how he used to be. Skill and Power are not the same I hope you stick with it and learn the balance. Trust your fealings about the vibes its part of the most important leason.

[jhgtyre]

I've taken a few martial arts lessons and they were all soured by egomaniacal loons. The first was a Taekwando (sorry for what I can only imagine is the wrong spelling) class that involved an instructor who liked to slam the new students to the mat just to demonstrate what a bad ass he was. I got the hell out of there after just a few "lessons."

The second was a college course with an instructor versed in Wado Ryu karate. He seemed all right until a few of the advanced students told me he had gotten into trouble for picking bar fights with bigger guys because he had a serious case of "little man syndrome."

Those two experiences combined with a friends who had gone to Kang Ree (spelling again) whose claim to fame was that he had taught Elvis. My friend was a woman who was not very fit or limber and after failing to master some basic skill Kang Ree grabbed her forearm and gave her what we called an Indian burn when I was a kid. Needless to say she quit going.

I know there are probably dozens of great instructors out there for every bad one. I just haven't met them yet.

-ld

[AikiDale]

You have just hit on the pet peeve that makes me want to shoot some martial arts instructors and senior students. ( Well maybe not shoot them. Feeling them break in your bare hands is so much more satisfying....) There is absolutely no excuse for an instructor or senior to intentionally hurt a junior student. There is very little room for what should be the incredibly rare accidental injury.

Spook, keep up with your training as soon as the arm is healed. Avoid the idiot with the emotional problems, this is supposed to be self defense, not self abuse. Make sure your teacher understands you would rather not train with that person until you are skilled enough to take better care of yourself.

I have had students who got to the point in their training where they started to abuse their juniors. Sometimes they just do not understand how powerful they are becoming and we can work on that, it's part of the process of understanding yourself. The others do not stay long if they don't get with the program real quick; sensei can play that game better than they can....

[Skywalker]

Spook,

I feel for you.

You just demonstrated that, like in the shooting circle, there can be nice fellows and people who are only doing it to show (they think) they're a whole head above others.

Let your elbow heal (that's most important... ), and continue having fun with whatever you like: just do what you do on the range with mall ninjas and idiots in general ... let them hang by themselves (a few meters from your back)!

Edited May 3, 2006 by Skywalker

[spook]

Thanks guys

Well, I put my elbow on ice overnight, but it feels very sore and painful. Some motions (like the"armwrestle motion) produce a stinging pain on the inside of my elbow. I hope it will be OK

I will try to give it as much rest as I can.

Anybody here with martial atrs experience ever got a Kimura put on too hard? If so, what did you do about the pain?

The guy wrote me an apology email yesterday night. It clearly shows that he is sorry. I just wished he thought of that before he snapped my arm...

[AikiDale]

I don't hang out in BJJ circles or pay to view UFC events but if my understanding of the Kimura is correct it is known also as ude-garami, a bent arm lock I learned as a young Judoka and renamed by the Gracie after Kimura sensei whooped one of them with it. If this is correct you most likely have some inflamed tendons in your elbow. Ice and rest and an anti inflamatory like aspirin, ibuprofen or beer will help. Note: do not mix beer or any other alchoholic beverages with ibuprofen or aspirin; very bad for the liver I hear. If the pain does not subside soon see your favorite neighborhood orthopedist.

I am not a physician. I do not play one on TV. I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

I did however recieve a very similar injury from an Aikido technique we call shihonage back in the mid '70's and it was bothersome for many years....

[spook]

Thanks Dale

Yes, it is Ude Garami indeed. It sure feels like inflamed tendons. The crappy part is I blew out that same elbow about ten years ago bench pressing. It took me well over 3 years to fully get rid of it.

And it's my strong hand, so I'll have to see how it holds up on the range with SHO shooting.

I'll take your advice and have some aspirin.

Thanks again for the advice

Bjorn

[Turtle]

Sorry to hear about that Spook,

But if it's any consolation, I believe that you handled the situation well on many levels. When I started IPSC shooting in 1994 it seemed that almost everone that had any shooting skill also had the ego problem that your 'friend' has. I almost quit because they were so unpleasant to be around, but shooting meant too much to me for me to allow these other peoples' problems to dictate my future. I'm still shooting and I believe that most, if not all of them are long gone.

There is something inherently wrong with people who act like that. It is fixable, but the repairs do not come easy, partially because the people often do not know or care that they have a problem. His Kindergarten report card probably read: 'runs with scissors' and 'does not play well with others'. I hope your arm is OK and you're feeling better soon.

Regards,

Todd

[Kimberkid]

It is so very coincedental that you have had this experience. I have been a very big fan of NHB fights for a couple years now and always wished there was a place nearby to learn more than what can be picked up on tv. To my great satisfaction I found a Vale Tudo school about 20 minutes from my house and went to investigate. The place is run by 2 brothers (both very nice and helpful) but looks a bit "rough". This is still a dream on mine to get more involved with it, but decided I didnt wanna deal with the people of nature you experienced. Considering what you are doing, someone ignoring a "TAP!" is totally unacceptable. It shows a terrible disregard for someones safety, when they have been told ahead of time a safety net exists.

I understand it is important to train hard, but there is a difference between sparring and a sanctioned fight. I also get that to some people, this is their life and they take it very serious, all the time. However, I am never going to be a pro fighter, thus, I still have to go to work tommorow.

If all else fails, pull a Forrest Griffin, when he breaks your arm, knock him out with the good arm.

[Putty]

He is developing too. Most often the body is behind the mental (can see how to do it but their bodies don't) and they gradually merge, seldom do you see the opposite through to black belt where some have alot of physical talent but no mental game and never finish.

He could be on the dreaded plateau of learning curve frustration. Lots o reasons, but I bet his feelings are genuine. Forgive him and you will always have someone to learn from, someone in your corner and a good friend.

[Merlin Orr]

.......There is absolutely no excuse for an instructor or senior to intentionally hurt a junior student. There is very little room for what should be the incredibly rare accidental injury.

........ if they don't get with the program real quick; sensei can play that game better than they can....

+1.

I have seen Sensei show a student (who has just been roughed up by a senior student) the proper method to counter the moves or strikes that were just used against him in VERY convincing fashion a couple of times. Of course this was done using the offending student to demonstrate the counter strikes... A second lesson was never required when this happened.

Master Chang Pyo spoke very broken english but always got the point across very quickly...

If the guy makes the same "mistake" again ask him to show you the proper way to defend against attack from someone (yourself) armed with a hardwood Bo staff...You can then be the one to say "sorry"....

[p99shooter]

While teaching a grasp-avoidance technique, the Sensei at my son's dojo told the students that the instructors where going to start slowing bringing their hands in toward the students' faces. The students had to block the approaching arm to stop it from hitting their head or shoulder.

Sensei, talking to the students but looking at the parents in the classroom, jokingly says "If I hit you in the face, that's called 'training'."

It made me consider that there are schools out there that really would consider bopping a 5-year old on the face "training."

[XRe]

The guy wrote me an apology email yesterday night. It clearly shows that he is sorry. I just wished he thought of that before he snapped my arm...

I know the type well. Give him the chance, and he'll do it again, and then make up just as many excuses for why he did it, and act just as sorry about it. The guy has issues and is unsafe to be training around. Dale's advice sounds good, to me....

Regarding healing the injury - given the previous injury to that elbow, you might be best off heading to a doc sooner rather than later, just to make sure rest is all you need... It would be a shame to end up with an injury that won't heal completely because you didn't know the extent of it, and then overstressed it. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I've personally had good luck with "alternate" medicine, as well, for whatever that's worth.

[spook]

Well, I went to see my doc today and she sent me to the hospital to have some x-rays taken. Fortunately nothing is broken, but when I make sudden movements, or the movements like pushing a mag into a gun, it hurts really bad. She told me to take lots of rest and expected it to be over within a couple of weeks. I think it's going to be more.

What sucks is that operating my 650XL really hits the spot where it hurts.

The good thing is that I will visit my brother in NY for three weeks in a week, so I don't get to do a lot for that time anyways.

I already sent an email that I'll quit taking these classes. I thought BJJ would be a nice to get into MMA, but then again, I don't want to jeopardize my shooting by getting injured (the first thing that went through my mind was "crap, I can't shoot anymore"). I'll drop by to thank the teacher for his classes.

Sandoz, I think his feelings are genuine. But I talked to a one year student the way home and he told me this guy pulled something like that on him too one year ago. I am not going to risk never being able to shoot again just to help this guy overcome his personal problems

KimberKid, I hear ya man. I love to see a good NHB fight. I couldn't pull a Forrest on him though, because a ) I almost never get mad at people, but just very disappointed and b ) I can't throw with my left hand worth a s***

Merlin and P99, your stories are exactly the kind of things I've witnessed over and over in different martial art schools. It's such a shame. Most martial arts could be so much fun to do, but somehow these egomaniacs start ruining the game.

XRe, I'm afraid you're right. As much as I would like to forgive this guy, I'm just scared he will do it again and ruin me permanently. The funny thing is that I don't even mind rolling a little more seriously, but his over-the-top way of acting came out of nowhere.

It probably wouldn't have happened if I knew what to expect.

[Putty]

I am sorry to hear that you are dis-connecting from the class.

My first week in a karate class (where I eventually instructed) a mean black belt suckered me in and almost took my head off with a spinning elbow. I stayed, learned alot, grew personally but never trusted his azz.

Dont let one dikhead ruin a good thing. Or use it as an impetus to be better than him. Just dont roll with him until yur better.

[Kimberkid]

if you already took the leap of starting once, maybe you should try another school?

Even people that cant throw a left punch worth a s***, usually can throw a left elbow just fine. And remember, seeing is believing, see blood running from a ginsu elbow hurts a lot more than an even harder punch.

[raz-0]

If you have been doing the martial arts thing much, you can tell the difference between a mistake and bad judgement. The very fact that the guy blamed it on his mood, says a lot to me.

I've been in what sounds like a similar position to that guy where I was learning. You just simply do NOT spar full on with someone of that differing of a skill level. PERIOD.

As for the assertion that there are likely a bunch of good instructors for every bad one.. I honestly think it is likely the other way around. At least around here there are a LOT of bad instructors. Lots of folks who made it 2/3 of the way through the belts with someone who wasn't REALLY good decides to award themselves instructor status and open up shop. By and large, these folks did not make for good teachers.

I'd also disagree that few people's body's outpace their minds when it comes to performance. In the visualize it/execute it way maybe, but I found it to be pretty common to not be able to mentally "turn up/turn down" your game. Which if you are going to spar with students and teach tehm something is a necessary skill. If you are running a class with a decent variety of skill levels, it something you have to make sure people have before letting them spar with less advanced students. Then there's changing the rules up, I found it very common for people to have learning curve issues when you allow locks/throws/sweeps/move of your choice in one sparring session, but not another (for example trying to make them focus on a particular skill set). Then there's the emotional part of the mind equation. The frequency of folks who couldn't take losing a match personally or without having a counterproductive emotional outburst (anger, crying, throwing a mini tantrum at themselves, etc.) was pretty staggering.

But if the guy is comitted, I can at least guarantee you he will have to put up with a LOT of people just like him, and they will be trying to kick his ass beyond the scope of the exercise because he's of a higher rank and they want to be the bad-ass. ONe of them will slip up or get lucky, and he will be in the place you are wondering just how hurt for how long he is. (you instruct enough, and this will likely happen to you even if you are really good and a nice guy, which makes the fact a bit less satisfying, but you take what you can get )

Having done the martial arts thing for a bit, I honestly have to say I wouldn't go anyplace I hadn't gotten solid word of mouth on. One of the better places I found to collect opinions is at college classes. They very often attract folks trying out other styles and out of towners looking for a good place themselves, and thus produce rich sources for opinions on what's available in a given area.

[Ted Murphy]

I had a guy in my aikido dojo like that. He seemed to groove on trying to hurt people.

Always wanted to punch him in the throat very hard, and see if he could come up with the proper technique for stopping the attack. ( I doubt it)

Most the guys and gals at my dojo were very nice, but there were a few who seemed to have been bullied as a kid and were still trying to get their lunch money back.

I moved away from my dojo and was considering looking into something new, but I have to admit I hated dealing with some of the guys you run into at dojos

Ted