Match Ammo

[warpspeed]

I have yet to see a rule cite from the "QUOTE THE RULE!" crowd that says RM can go in your bag and chrono ammo you aren't using. Or go into your car and drive it around for a while. Show up at your house and inspect your press and loading setup. SHOW ME THE RULE!!!!!!

If you don't like agree with the rule as-is (and there's no way you're going to convince me that 'using' means two wildly different things in the very same section of the rules), fix it, don't go around interpreting them with an opinion.

( first of all, let me say that the tone of the above post does not seem to me to be antagonistic, rude, condescending or mean. It sound more frustrated to me )

Also, I did not read all 7 pages so I apologize if this has been covered already.

The only rule I can see that would allow a RM to go into your bag would be # 28.

28. An initial sample of eight rounds of ammunition will be collected from each competitor at a time and place determined by Match Officials. Match

Officials may require that a competitor’s ammunition be retested at any time during the match and may collect further samples as necessary.

So, if during the check in of competitors they are informed by the Match Officials that the initial sample of chrono rounds might / will / could be selected from any ammo in your range bag by the Official administering the chronograph at the designated time and place of collection, they can.

Of if the MD says " I will select the ammo from loose rounds in your car" I suppose they could as long as, according to rule # 28, it was determined by the Match Officials that is how it was to be done. I would think that this should be announced or published somewhere as to avoid confusion.

Also, it states Match Officials may require that a competitor’s ammunition be retested at any time during the match and may collect further samples as necessary. "as necessary" is pretty broad and I think someone could argue that pulling loads from a range bag might be necessary if they really suspected a shooter was trying to cheat.

Yes ? No ?

[Gary Johnson]

I can't imagine a set of circumstances under which a range officer would lay hands on competitor equipment outside of a safety issue (dropped gun, etc.) and all this 'you're not touching my range bag" is starting to sound like the kid who tells the babysitter "you're not the boss of me!".

Maybe it's the thought of an Obama presidency that has folks on edge regarding civil liberties. I don't believe it's because anyone has had their range bag ransacked by a jack booted RO.

Here's a hypothetical that might explain where the rules and policies in question came from. This is strictly MHO as a USPSA member who has some experience with rules issues. I have never been involved in a real life match ammo dispute.

Frank and Earnest, two fictional competitors who have never met before, are squadded together at the Gooberville Regional Smackdown.

On stage 1 Frank pulls eight rounds from a red ammo box and puts them in the baggie. At every other stage, he loads his mags from blue ammo boxes. Earnest notices that on stage thirteen (long range standards) Frank loads his mags from a red box and his rounds are noticeably louder than when he was loading from blue boxes. He notifies the RO that there may be an issue with Frank's ammo.

Being a conscientious range officer, he interviews Frank's squad mates, and the consensus is that Frank is shooting two different loads. The RO brings his concern to Frank who states simply that the rounds he sent to chrono made power factor. The RO sends Frank to Chrono to have his ammo checked.

Upon arrival at Chrono Frank is asked for some of the ammo in question to which Frank replies, "I'm not USING ammo from a red box. All my mags are loaded with ammo from the blue boxes. If you want to check ammo from a red box you will have to follow me around and wait for me to load a mag with ammo from a red box."

Kinda ridiculous huh?

I don't know if this ever happened but the way the rule and appendix are written make me think something similar did.

Consider another example from the real world. Some SFB decides to board a commercial airliner with exploding shoes. Fortunately for us he had SFB and his shoes didn't go boom, they just made a bad smell. Now everyone has to take off their shoes at TSA. Is anyone going to try to get on a plane with exploding shoes? Not likely, but that one idiot gave the rule makers reason to believe shoe searches were a good idea.

If you don't like everyone seeing the holes in your basketball socks thank the idiot who thought PF Flyers would make a good shaped charge IED. If you don't like the ammo inspection policies, thank the guys who try to game the chrono. Don't blame the guys charged with weeding out the bad eggs.

ETA: SFB = Sawdust For Brains

Edited October 11, 2008 by Gary Johnson

[Merlin Orr]

If someone if suspected of having illegal ammo in their bag with intent to cheat .... the Match Rep puts up a $100.00 and, the competitor being insulted and humiliated by being labeled a cheat via the inspection, puts up a $100. If ammo, in numbers sufficient to shoot the match, is found which is below power factor a DQ is issued - if not the competitor gets the $100 bucks and calls it good......

[AikiDale]

I think if everyone thinks someone is cheating everyone should talk about someone behind their back and not squad with them.

[wide45]

Are we done getting all whipped up about imaginary bag searches, and the sky falling?

[JKSNIPER]

NICE Gary!

I like it.

Exploding shoes......

What a dope.

JK

[chuckbradley]

Some of these posts can be pretty funny if somebody read them not knowing what you guys were talking about.

I believe searching and handling a RANGE bag without permission or even under duress is an invasion of privacy. If an RO suspects a cheater they are more than welcome to collect rounds from every mag used on every stage. That should be deterrence enough. And it should be implemented more than it is now. Collection times should not be announced and they should be collected from a magazine that was used on a stage. We have become complacent in the enforcement of the chrono in that the cheaters know how to beat the system since most matches just ask for 8 rounds at the start of the match. Then they are free to use what they want. Its not advantageous to use minor ammo mixed with major ammo. Timing, function and point of impact changes enough they wouldn't want to mix the ammo. So we need to bring randomness back to the function of chrono which will turn a cheaters advantage into a disadvantage.

One thing I always hated was when i was asked to give ammo out of a magazine just before I was up to shoot. I had just got done making sure my magazines were loaded and placed where I needed them to execute my plan. The proper time to collect is right after the shooter completes the stage. Then each squad should be made aware that ammo will be collected from at least one member later on and they will need to chrono again or with that ammo if they hadn't chronoed yet.

So instead of taking the easy way out and threatening to search a shooters belongings, follow the random plan even though it may ad a little extra work on the match staff. This preserves the integrity of the sport and the shooters right to privacy.

[Flexmoney]

I can't imagine a set of circumstances under which a range officer would lay hands on competitor equipment outside of a safety issue (dropped gun, etc.) and all this 'you're not touching my range bag" is starting to sound like the kid who tells the babysitter "you're not the boss of me!".

Are we done getting all whipped up about imaginary bag searches, and the sky falling?

As I posted before, I've seen it happen.

What I haven't seen happen is for anybody at ANY match that I've been around (quite a few) take any extra effort to collect the ammo in a random manner...nor any other manner that might actual catch up somebody that is truly cheating. (that includes major matches that I have run...so I am just as culpable, fwiw)

The best effort I have seen was at Area 2, where (if I recall correctly) they just took ammo from your belt when you showed at chrono.

A lot of jawboning going on. I'd rather hear some successful efforts that have actually worked to catch some of these cheaters? Please share them.

[AikiDale]

I do not know if any cheaters were present but at the Area 5 matches a couple of years back run by SC Chuck Bradley rounds were collected at random from the mags on the shooters belts and forwarded to the chrono.

[XD Niner]

I do not know if any cheaters were present but at the Area 5 matches a couple of years back run by SC Chuck Bradley rounds were collected at random from the mags on the shooters belts and forwarded to the chrono.

That seems like a good approach to me. As for taking rounds from a range bag or other source that might not have been loaded to Major or Minor, when I'm at a match I only carry one caliber of round with me. Why would I want to haul a bunch of extra ammo all over the place? There may be a couple of loose rounds in the bottom of my bag but since I load all the rounds the same it is not an issue that worries me one way or the other. I think it is very, very unlikely that a range official would rummage through someone's bag for no good reason. They're way more likely to find that missing peanut butter and jelly sandwich from the 2006 Florida Open than a sub-PF round.

[lcs]

I can't imagine a set of circumstances under which a range officer would lay hands on competitor equipment outside of a safety issue (dropped gun, etc.) and all this 'you're not touching my range bag" is starting to sound like the kid who tells the babysitter "you're not the boss of me!".

Are we done getting all whipped up about imaginary bag searches, and the sky falling?

As I posted before, I've seen it happen.

What I haven't seen happen is for anybody at ANY match that I've been around (quite a few) take any extra effort to collect the ammo in a random manner...nor any other manner that might actual catch up somebody that is truly cheating. (that includes major matches that I have run...so I am just as culpable, fwiw)

The best effort I have seen was at Area 2, where (if I recall correctly) they just took ammo from your belt when you showed at chrono.

A lot of jawboning going on. I'd rather hear some successful efforts that have actually worked to catch some of these cheaters? Please share them.

"The best effort I have seen was at Area 2, where (if I recall correctly) they just took ammo from your belt when you showed at chrono."

Flex, I unload every mag after every stage. I just happen to believe I am saving my mag springs. What happens if I show up at chrono with empty mags?

I kind of agree that my range bag is private property and no one should be allowed to go through my personal belongings, but most matches are on private property and we (USPSA) can mandate full inspections of any bags carried on the range(If USPSA wants to). I could care less if a match official wants to look in my range bag and see where I am pulling my eight rounds from. Just me I guess. At major matches where you shoot 250 rounds and have to carry enough for re-shoots, I for one am not going to carry any training ammo or practice ammo. I have enough crap to carry as it is.

I for one, could care less how match officials obtain my chrono rounds. If cheating is that rampant--get iron clad rules to stop it. I don't need "Miranda Rights" read to me so a RM/RO/CRO/chrono man can select the friggin roungs if he wants. It is no big deal--unless you are cheating! So if your intent is to tighten up the rules and close the "loop holes"-let's git-er-done and move on to threads that might help my shooting skills.

[mactiger]

OK, so does this sum it up? If a match official asks for ammo from your magazines, or from a box in your shooting bag, most everybody on this thread is cool with it. Right? But, a match official has no right to "search" or take something from your bag without permission--again, right?

Ammo you are carrying around can be collected for chrono, as long as nobody searches your bag?

The reason I ask is because some of the "you're not digging in my bag" people have stated that if asked, they would supply ammo from their bag, instead of their magazines, so I'm kinda confused over where all the argument came from about possession and usage.

If your main concern is that nobody searches your bag, well, I didn't hear anybody threaten to do that, really. I know I wouldn't, but I might ask for some rounds from that red box or something like that. It kind of makes me wonder why going into your bag is a no-no, but picking up and stripping rounds out of one of your discarded magazines is OK. It's all your property, right?

Anyway, Chuck has a good point. We take ammo first thing because it's expeditious to do so. However, it may make more sense to collect the chrono sample at the same time you sign your sheet after that first run. A little more spontaneous, we don't make you reload a magazine that you had already loaded, and it probably won't make a difference to 99.9% of the competitors in the match.

Troy

[Dale Rader]

It kind of makes me wonder why going into your bag is a no-no, but picking up and stripping rounds out of one of your discarded magazines is OK. It's all your property, right?

If I finish a stage and turn around and someone is stripping ammo out of my mags, I am going to have a little talk with that person immediatly! I will furnish ammo anytime and from anywhere requested but do not pick up my mags and just start stripping ammo out of them wheather you have on a Match Official shirt or not. If you pick up my mags, fine; just hand them back to me and say "Could I have those remaining rounds for chrono?" and the ammo will now be yours.

[shred]

When flying to matches, it's very common for couples, parent/juniors (or even buddies) to share a range bag or cart. 50 lbs doesn't go far these days, especially overseas.

I, PERSONALLY, have shared a range bag, multiple times at matches. In some of those cases, the other competitors ammo would not make PF in my gun or was for a completely different division (or even was a completely different caliber). That ammo was clearly marked to us (Montana Gold = Yours, HAP = Mine).

THAT is where I have a problem with "I can take any of the ammo in your bag".

You a free to chrono any of the ammo I am using in the gun I am using. You are not free to pick any random ammo to chrono through my gun, whether it's my kids', brothers', mothers', or the handful of ammo somebody dumped in my bag at Nationals this year. If you think I'm using non-PF ammo, then please take whatever steps you feel necessary.

"Get another bag" is not a reasonable response.

[skeeter]

when asked for ammo, i get it out of my bag unless asked not too.

no RO will want thus rounds rolling around in the bottom of my bag. first there isn't enough there to shoot a stage let alone a match. if you need 300 rounds to shot the match you'll have them where you can get them easy( i just dump mine loss in a box)why would he look for a ammo that not part of the match ammo? they want to catch the cheaters, if you see a guy going for ammo out of the side pocket instead of where the match ammo is you might ask why. but you'd never go digiing thru someone else's bag.

[John Baier]

Am I missing something here or did someone really get their bag ransacked? What range officer in there right mind would start digging through a competitor's bag. Really is this one of those "urban mythes"? Do we need myth busters to take this one on? Sorry for the rant, but I'm getting the feeling that some people just want to argue just for argument sake. Let get back to answering legitimate rule questions. Sorry Flex, but it seems like this forum is getting little out of control.

Edited October 23, 2008 by John Baier

[dajarrel]

<edit> I had a real spiffy comment all ginned up about this thread. After I typed it, I decided that it didn't help in any way. So it's gone.

It's kinda like a preacher I know said once. "If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is usually the one you hit."

dj

Edited October 23, 2008 by dajarrel

[JThompson]

"Get your cotton-picking schnoz out of my bag, y'know!"

A cookie if you know from where. Hint: The word bag was actually "pants"

I think this is much ado about nothing. I guess it's happened, but it's the exception rather than the rule. This thread and it reads childish as hell. There's no reason to go in the bag for ammo because there are several legit reasons why ammo from the bag might not make the intended PF. You take them from the place the comp is actually using them and that's the mags. It's simple as that. If it isn't in a mag it can't be shot.

I can't believe this thread is still being discussed...

[matt2ace]

Do a pull of ammo off the belt on a random stage... The RO points to a mag/s and takes them from there.

Done and done.

Seems pretty heated for such a simple thing......

I did the ammo collection and ran the chrono at several AWARE matches in VT. We picked up the rounds from squads well before they got to the chrono. I would randomly ask competitors for ammo from either mags or boxed ammo. If I asked for it out of box, it might be the one they are loading mags from at that moment or I might ask for ammo out of another box in from their bag. I felt that this method left little opportunity for 'gaming' ammo and was fair to all competitors. I never had a competitor question my methods or object to any request and I would gladly explain my reasons if asked.

Any method of collecting ammo that casts doubt on the honesty of competitors is doing a disservice to all involved in this sport.

[Flexmoney]

Sorry for the rant, but I'm getting the feeling that some people just want to argue just for argument sake.

I disagree.

You are right. This one has more than run it's course.

Closed.

- Admin