Critique My Ar Choice.

[Mark01]

I'm finally ready to take the plunge and purchase an AR primarily for 3-gun limited/tactical.

After looking at a lot of web sites and reading numerous forum topics on the issue I've concluded that I still don't know what to buy. However the Fulton Phantom seems to be the closest to what I want, literally - they are only about 70 miles from my door. Below is their description of the Phantom. It sells for $1050 + $50 for chromed barrel + $80 for flip up rear sight + 5% MD tax. Money is, as always, an issue. This is pushing the limit of my budget - I have to leave some for optics and a few other necessities.

First of all is there another manufacturer that I should be considering?

Second, if I go with Fulton which barrel is going to serve me best? I'm wavering between the 16" heavy contour cl and the 20" heavy contour cl. They also have the option of a Douglas 18" True Special Purpose Rifle (SPR), 1x8 Twist, Chrome-Moly, Threaded Muzzle barrel, but I'm not sure it’s worth the additional money. I want something that is going to be very versatile and won't limit me.

What am I going to need to change or add?

Appreciate every ones sagely advice.

Mark

Fulton Armory

Fulton ARmory Phantom FAR-15

SOCOM/Enhanced Battle Rifle (EBR)

Rifles and Carbines

Fulton ARmory Phantom FAR-MkIV Carbine

Numbered GI-Contractor Flattop Carbine with 16" Heavy Contour Barrel

Both the Phantom Carbine and Rifle include:

* Round & Fluted Full-Float Tube; optional 2, 3, 4, 7 and 12 inch Swan/Weaver rails may be mounted on any or all of the four sides

* Ambi Sling Swivel, side or bottom mount

* Flip Up Front Sight Gas Block

* Choice of Barrels, all with Fulton ARmory 5.56MM Match Chamber:

o Fulton ARmory 1-in-9 Heavy Contour 16" barrel

o Fulton ARmory 1-in-9 Heavy Contour 16" barrel with Chrome lined bore and chamber

o Fulton ARmory 1-in-9 M4 16" barrel with Chrome lined bore and chamber

o Fulton ARmory 1-in-9 Heavy Contour 20" barrel

o Fulton ARmory 1-in-9 Heavy Contour 20" barrel with Chrome lined bore and chamber

o Fulton ARmory NM 1-in-8 Chrome Moly Heavy Contour 20" barrel

Perfect for that Black Hills 77-gr ammo! Throated for 69-grain and up.

o Fulton ARmory NM 1-in-8 Stainless Steel Heavy Contour 20" barrel

Perfect for that Black Hills 77-gr ammo! Throated for 69-grain and up.

* A2 Flash Suppressor

* D-Fender Extractor Enhancer

* Fulton ARmory Forged Lower Receiver

* Hand-Tuned 2-Stage Rock River NM Trigger

—Optional Fully User-Adjustable Two-Stage Jewell NM Trigger

* "The Gapper"

* Ergo Tactical Grip

* 7-Position Collapsible Stock (Carbine)

* A2 Buttstock (Rifle)

* Five-round Magazine

* "The Complete AR-15 Owner's Guide" by Kuleck & Duff.

Expect ¾ MOA Accuracy!

[George]

Not my first choice for an AR.

I would get a JP, or have Benny Hill build me one if I wanted an AR. Benny might just fit your budget, give him a call at Triangle Shooting Sports.

http://www.triangleshootingsports.com/

Drool over these:

http://www.jprifles.com/

If you absolutely must buy a commercial rifle instead of getting something from Benny, then at least look at these options:

http://www.dpmsinc.com/10Browse.asp?catID=1379

DPMS has 25-30 options at this link and will customize any way you want. They also support the sport and are one of the better made AR's out there

http://www.cavalryarms.com/rifleman.html

Cavalry Arms makes the only non-metallic AR lower out there and it's a great rifle, they are grreat guys and they support the sport too.

If you get a commercial rifle from anyone, I would immediately have a JP trigger installed (preferrably by JP or Benny). I would also get one of the following muzzle brakes over anything else out there.

JP BC Brake

Benny Hill Rolling Thunder Brake

F2 Brake

Miculek Brake

The gas block from Fulton is a "Loser" compared to one from JP or MSTN with integral rail instead of a built-in sight.

Why the 16"er? An 18" or 20" with a full length gas system will shoot way better and is no detriment in handling at all. Almost none of the main contenders shoot anything but 20's. An 18 or 20 allows a longer handguard because the gas block is farther forward and this allows many more options for support without tweaking the bbl when resting on available support. I use a Phat JP handguard that goes out over the gas block, this lets me grip and rest the sucker all ovah' the place ;-)

Do a search here about the pros and cons of the short and full length gas systems and you may be surprised at what you learn.

I shoot a heavily customized JP CTR-02 with their 20" lightweight SS 1:8 bbl and wouldn't trade it for anything :-)

Welcome to the forums.

[Putty]

+1 on any advice George gives

[uscbigdawg]

One more for George!

I have a JP, DPMS and a Cav Arms rifle (among others) and wouldn't trade them for anything else.

My duty rifle, oddly enough, is build by Fulton. It's okay, but I'd rather carry my JP/Voigt.

SPC (P) Richard A. White, Senior Medic

249th MP Detachment (EACF)

Camp Humphreys, ROK

76 days and a wake up left on the ROK!

[SinistralRifleman]

http://www.cavalryarms.com/rifleman.html

Cavalry Arms makes the only non-metallic AR lower out there and it's a great rifle, they are grreat guys and they support the sport too.

Just wanted to add that we now have a Practical Carbine Package that would be a good starter kit for someone wanting to shoot Tac Scope; http://www.cavalryarms.com/CAPCP.html

You can always add a match trigger and free float tube later.

Edited April 22, 2006 by SinistralRifleman

[Mark01]

I'm looking at DPMS's web site and I must be missing it. Which of their current offerings have a flat top, 20" threaded barrel, full float tube?

[George]

You have them customize for you.

[BBoyd]

I have a fulton 20 inch heavy barrel upper and have been real happy with it, it's a tack driver for sure. it's well finished throughout.

[EricW]

I don't know about long term reliability, but for sheer feel the RR trigger is hands-down the best I've felt on an AR.

Edited April 22, 2006 by EricW

[PistolPete]

Here is my JP rifle:

EXPENSIVE????

Yes, but worth every penny. I'm new to the AR game so I can't give much advice.

However, when deciding what to build I talked to John at JP Enterprises and he got me going for only a few hundred dollars more than your budget. I opted for some exras and spent 3x that but I didn't need to.

You could buy an inexpensive scope to get you going such as the Simmons scope that I'm using which only cost me $100 delivered. I'm sure I'll replace the scope but so far it seems great.

Pete

[Mark01]

Okay, possibly a new route. If it seems I'm stuck on Fulton, I'm not. It just happens to be a starting point for me - one that falls within my budget.

Fulton upper = $650 - probably less if I take it with out a few of the unwanted items such as the gas block/front sight and flash hider.

Brownells shopping spree:

Miculek comp

JP SS gas block

YHM flip up front sights

Ace stock

JP hammer & trigger

Fulton lower

Fulton lower parts kit = $553

Total = $1203 This is without the possible cost reduction to the upper.

Plus a little DIY satisfaction.

What I'm I forgetting? To ambitious?

[uscbigdawg]

I think you'd be much happier with having DPMS or Cavalry Arms build everything you want and delivered. It'll be less than $1200, have everything that you want and come from a great manufacturer that supports our sport.

Of course, a couple of hundred more and you have a JP.

SPC (P) Richard A. White, Senior Medic

249th MP Detachment (EACF)

Camp Humphreys, ROK

[Larry White]

Triangle Shooting Sports, Benny Hill, 361-241-1091.------Larry

Edited April 23, 2006 by lkytx

[George]

Triangle Shooting Sports, Benny Hill, 361-241-1091.

+1 to that with your budget, Mark. If you read my first post again, you will note that this is my first recommendation to you.

You could buy all those parts and gussy up the Fulton yourself for that 12 hunnert sumthin' and you would have an OK rifle, but not a world class rifle. There are tricks to building serious AR's and someone who knows them will do a way better job than you will your first, second, or even third time out. Building is fun, but not being completely satisfied is not. The possibility is there that you may not do a good job of it and the rifle will only shoot so-so and now you will be taking it to a smith who is good with AR's anyway. JMO, but one I learned real well ;-)

A much better option would be to give Benny Hill that same stack-o-cash and he will build you an AR that may not be as pretty as a custom milled JP CTR-02 is, but it will shoot sub-moa with good ammo, it will run 100% if you lube and feed it right, it will have a JP trigger in it, it will be a 20" or 18" flat top or whatever you want, it will have a good gas block on it, it will have a free float hand guard. In short, it will be everything you wanted, but didn't know you wanted AND it will fit your budget.

Seriously, give Benny a ring before you do anything else whatsoever. I am pretty darned sure that phone call will be one of the best you will ever make :-)

I love JP Ar's but they also cost an arm and a leg. They are worth it, but for less, Benny will build you an AR that will do everything a JP does and just as well. It will also be a heck of a lot better gun than anything you can put together by yourself from a catalog ;-)

[kellyn]

My God people! How many times must we go through this! The options are pretty simple:

1) Get a complete rifle from JP, MSTN, POF-USA, Triangle Shooting Sports, CavArms, or DPMS

2) Get a good lower from somebody that actually supports out sport (CavArms, DSA, DPMS, Sabre, etc.), add a good trigger from someone who supports us (JP or Accuracy Speaks) and put a good upper on it, again from someone who supports us (from JP, POF-USA, Accuracy Speaks, Clark Gator, MSTN, or Triangle Shooting Sports) - I apologize if I missed someone who builds ARs for our sport or gives us monetary support.

WHY! WHY! WHY! Go to someone who does builds ARs without knowledge of what we do?

WHY! WHY! WHY! Give money to manufacturers who don't support our sport.

I have no personal experience with Fulton stuff so I can't say if it's great, good, bad etc. but I have yet to see them donate to a match or a Fulton rifle win anything. I'm not going to be as polite as George and lay into the rifle that you've displayed:

The foreend is too short

The foreend does not have the ability to mount sights, flashlights, etc.

There is no comp

Sight radius for the irons is far too short

Nobody and I mean nobody likes that CAR-style stock, get a SOPMOD, VLTOR, or ACE

Most action/practical shooters prefer a single stage trigger

[Wakal]

To Kelly you should listen

Just my two cents...and I built custom AR's for fun and profit... Talk to Benny Hill and get the right rifle (ready to run) for your $1,200!

No disrespect intended to Walt and the rest of the nice guys at Fulton (they did a great job on one of my M14's ), but they are Service Rifle competition oriented. You want a guy who is not only one of the top 3-Gun shooters but a hell of a gunsmith to get your rifle set up right, the first time.

Benny is one of the gunsmiths that I trust, and I've dealt with a lot of them (and don't trust with my hard-earned dollars lightly ).

Alex

Edited April 23, 2006 by Wakal

[scooterj]

Don't forget about the "Gator" from Clark Custom Guns.

Jim Jr. builds one heck of a rifle with all the bells and whistles on it.

My Gator is my favorite of the 3 AR's that I own.

[Mark01]

kellyn,

Like I said I'm not stuck on Fulton. I am aware of the upgrades and $$ needed to make it competitive. They make a good product, are local to me and that has its appeal.

I'll give triangle shooting sports a call. Their web site offers little info. I'll probably do the same with DPMS.

You mention POF as a choice. Gas piston? I've asked this question here before - gas piston as a competition gun? No gas block capability so isn't it at a disadvantage to the standard AR design which can utilize this feature?

Does MTSN have a web site?

scooterj,

The clark gator is a nice looking gun and one I was originally eyeing but it is around $1400.

It can be said that it is only a few hundred more, but with that logic the next best thing is always just a few dollars more. I need to keep true to my budget or I could easily follow pistolpetes lead and spend 3x more that what I needed to

[MCFooter]

Does MTSN have a web site?

http://mstn.biz/

[kellyn]

So far, I've been very impressed with the gas piston upper I have from POF-USA. I've also been impressed with the ZM rifles that I'ver shot. True, you cannot tune the gas block like a JP but I don't consider that a significant disadvantage.

[Bronco]

Mark 01, If you want a rifle that is ready to rock, custom built and tuned give Greg Copeland at Copeland custom a call 620-442-7470 (south central KS.) He did a rifle for a friend that used the following main components.

Cav arms lower

DPMS low-pro upper

Bushmaster 1 in 7 20" lite contour barrel

Dpms FFT

Copeland custom trigger, hammer and carrier

It shoots 1/2 to 3/4 moa and is around $1000.00 depending on your accessories. Greg is a good guy and I've known him for longer than I care to admit. He has built 3 pistols for me and worked on most of my other guns. You would do well to accept the advice given by the forum members they will save you time , money and grief.

[Mark01]

Okay, checked out Benny H., DPMS and Clark. The price is about right for the Benny H and DPMS.

Something interesting - DPMS differentiates between the 223 and the 5.56 receiver. Offering their 1x8 barrel SS in the 223. They said this would be more accurate but would require more specific bullet weights (heavier) and types. Whereas the 223 receiver and 1x9 cromo barrel will be accurate with the lighter bullets but handle a wider range of bullets successfully = if I understood correctly. I understand the difference in the twist and bullet weight and the difference between the dimensions of the 223 and 5.56. But is there truely a difference significant enough to dictate what ammo you can safely/reliably shoot?

Benny H and Clark say there is no difference.

What are you shooting?

[Merlin Orr]

What are you shooting?

A Benny Hill for myself. Mine is an outstanding shooter and totally reliable. There are a couple of others who build really nice guns but the deal clincher for me was how cute Benny is....

[George]

.223 and 5.56 are the exact same bore diameter. Only the chamber dimensions are different. The 5.56 NATO chambering is a looser fit to the .223 cartridge case to allow for better operating reliability when dirty and to allow using ammo of variable dimensional tolerance.

A 5.56 chamber will digest oversize cases better than a tight .223 chambering will. Some AR's use an even tighter chamber cut than the SAAMI .223 specification. The JP match bbl chambers are typically cut with a .223 Wylde chamber reamer which is an even smaller set of dimensions than the SAAMI .223 specification. This means that cases must be sized to a smaller diameter to reliably chamber.

Accuracy can be diminished by a looser chambering choice due to the added slop, but the bullet weight you can use in a bbl is not determined by the chambering choice, only by the bbl twist rate.

DPMS does a great job of supporting the sport and they build a great piece of rifle, but they are not gonna' provide as well fit a rifle as you will get from Mr. Hill for the same price. Trust me on this one. A factory operation with a custom shop option will turn out an OK product, but is just not going to bring the level of craftsmanship to the table that a smaller shop with a gifted smith running it will.

The fact that Benny can give you a "finely customized product" for the same price an assembly line manufacturing outfit charges for a "partially customized, but still mass produced product" is the reason you should be jumping on one of his rifles.

[mike_pinto]

BENNY!!!

Fully custom rifle, great price, and Benny is a great guy.

Did I mention Benny?

Mike