The Cruel Tutelage Of The Dot

[John Dunn]

Was doing some chrono work today testing some open loads, then shot around 200 rds just looking at the dot, experimenting with grip, etc.

How long does it take to get used to the dot? It blows. I can see every tremor, I can see my crappy trigger control before breaking the shot (darn, thought I was halfway decent at that). I'm blinking like crazy, and no I wasn't double plugged. Anything but glacial splits gives me a vertical dot blur, so I know I'm in the middle of brown, just can't tell where the heck I am vertically. I could kick my own a$$ in open with my limited gun, easily.

Discovered that if I about double my normal grip pressure and cant my weakhand down a little more the dot tracks better, but I have about zero chance of finding the dot quickly that way.

If I weren't learning so much I'd sell this open gun in a heart beat. Ignorance was bliss.

[Crusher]

Try and focus on the target and let the "dot" be where you want the hits to go on the target. You can't shoot a "dot" like "irons" it's all target focus with those things.

[AlamoShooter]

Looking at target/ looking at dot = Try using a small light rifle= one easy to hold up like a rimfire with a scope set at 3 to 6 power. Now look at the crosshair in the scope and try to hold it on a target. = the cross hair will jerk around like a sick fly.

Now look at the target and you should notice a smother /dampend movment to the cross hair. I did say notice or be aware of the cross hair.

As the shot get longer and smalller I will put more attintiton on the dot ,But I still look at the point I want to hit.

I sugested a rifle with a scope cuzz , the scope will magnify the movment and make the demo easy to see.

Longer and smaller as in 2" targets at 45 yards = offhand

But? I may not know nothing.

Edited April 4, 2006 by AlamoShooter

[Flyin40]

I just put a ton a rounds downrange last yr in the early spring to try and get used to the dot. I also found out at the end or last yr/beginning of this yr that I focused on the dot and not the target. Figuring this out has already helped me out.

Flyin40

[Chris Keen]

I could kick my own a$$ in open with my limited gun, easily.

LMAO!!!

Just do what you did today ............ for another 100 days, and you'll be close!

[eric nielsen]

Just take it slow at first.

Might try just holding the gun, finger off the trigger. Hold it on one round plate dryfire target and then slowly transition to another round target or object. You won't be as tough on yourself if you just have to center up the dot on a circle.

Might try breaking shots on a blank wall at first. You'll see a wiggle but won't know how much it is. Just make the wiggle get smaller from one session to the next.

[Loves2Shoot]

I was an open shooter for years, then I went back to limited to learn to shoot. A very good open shooter started coming back to matches so I dusted off the open gun. The first match I had bouncing ball syndrome the whole match, the second match I had it for the first stage, the rest of the match I looked at the targets and where I wanted to hit and I had a decent match. Where I put my focus seems to matter to me. I do think at this point I'de be faster with my limited gun, if I could get it back from the smith

I feel your pain

[XRe]

I've got some of this going on right now, too I got real used to seeing the sights line up and sit pretty. I've realized, this latest time around, just how forgiving iron sights really are. Sure, they take slightly longer to line up on target, but... get an imperfect grip, have imperfect recoil control, make imperfect draw/reload/etc movements?? No worries, you can still find sights and line them up quickly....

The dot will teach you to be very consistent at those things The downside is that it lets you be sloppy about other things... switching back and forth seems to have a lot of benefit...

I just switched back to Open for the bulk of the season - the timing is freaky. The gun is ready to go so quickly, I don't know what to do with it, yet. My grip pressure is whacked - the dot isn't following anything like a consistent, straight track, yet. Of course, I've only fired 120 rounds in a match, so... a little practice will help a bunch...

The trick with the "blurry sight picture" with a dot, for me, is to learn the timing of the gun. Once you get the gun cycling straight up and down (a combination of grip pressure and load parameters - mostly neutral grip), knowledge of the timing of the gun will allow you to shoot right as the dot returns to the aiming point on the target. That's not to say "shoot doubles", but that you'll visually track the dot downward as it returns and be pressing the trigger right as it "lines up" on the target. This is the equivalent of the "rolling sight picture" you get when shooting irons quickly up close. On longer, tighter stuff, I become more aware of a steady dot between shots.

[Ron Ankeny]

How long does it take to get used to the dot?

Not as long as you probably think. It looks like you might actually have to dry fire for a change, and God forbid, you might need to use that Dillon press for something other than a hat rack.

OK, I'll get serious. To quote Sam, I know your goal is to smoke me "like a cheap cigar" so I'll get you on the right track (trust me). First off, hunting for the dot is a real time killer. It's obvious that you will need to do a lot of dry draws in order to get the dot to magically appear right on target. But you will also need to learn how to shoot from awkward positions without losing the dot. You might feel stupid at first, but if you can do some moving and dry firing around corners, shooting through ports, etc. you can get up to speed fairly quickly. I set up a little field course in my house and run through it. When I first started shooting open, I ran a couple of pieces of masking tape across a door opening to create high, medium, and low shooting positions. I could practice acquiring the dot coming into a high, low, or medium port, as well as practicing left and right barricade from those positions. The dot must appear where you look without fail.

As for all those visual inputs you are describing, that's a good thing because it means you are seeing what is right in front of you to see. Here's a tool to help you switch from a sight focus to a target focus. Take a piece of wide masking tape or duct tape and run it from one side of the housing to the other side on the front of your C'More. Don't stick it to the lens, just fabricate a make shift cover kind of like a lens cap. Look through the scope with your dominate eye and you will see the dot projected on the tape, but of course you won't see the target (duh). Now dry fire with both eyes open. If you look at the dot, the target will disappear. If you see the dot superimposed on the target face, you are obviously looking right at the target. Now do some target transitions and you will see the dot on the target at the instant the gun catches up with your eyes. That's what you want to see. If you are still pulling your eyes back to the sights, you will know it immediately. If you are following the dot like a bouncing ball that will be apparant real fast.

As for dot tracking, man you will get a lot of opinions on that. When you shoot the dot will leave a trail (tail) in the vertical plane. Some shooters want very little lift so they shoot 115 bullets. Frankly, I prefer soft over flat and I want to see enough dot trail to call the shots. With my shorty gun, at 10 yards the dot would lift only to the top of the A box. With my current gun, the dot lifts higher. But, with the short gun the dot would dive, and in awkward positions with uneven grip pressure the dot would appear to fracture like glass and the gun had side to side movement. With my present set up, the dot returns exactly to the point of origin faster than I can pull the trigger. John, you have one of the finest open guns made. When you get the load that gives you the perfect combination of feel and visual inputs, you are going to rock.

As you know, the dot makes it so easy to see what's going on. Now consider this, that same stuff is going on with your Limited gun but you aren't worried about that are you? Now you are just seeing in greater detail what you have always been seeing. The dot allows you to really develop an understanding of visual acceptability. You just need to learn to see what is required to make the shot and not let the other visual inputs clutter your mind. I suppose I should shut up and let more experienced shooters offer some help. But before I go, have you tried shooting on the move with your new blaster? You are gonna love that.

Edited April 4, 2006 by Ron Ankeny

[XRe]

Good stuff there, Ron

[shred]

+1

FWIW, when I see my dot 'shatter', it means a grip screw is loose.

[John Dunn]

Ron, thanks for the info. My goal is always to beat you and Sam whenever you guys slip up a little. Rest assured that you are safe in open for the forseeable future, (and in any other division you care to name ).

I was reading some of your open gun posts from 2002 here last night, sounds like I'm about where you were at then with regards to the dot. I'm going to shoot Limited this year at the State match and Nationals, probably screw around in open the rest of the time.

I may have to get some wraparound shooting glasses as well, as I think the blast may be contributing to the blink.

Haven't tried shooting on the move, yet.

[bberkley]

I hear you John. I've just started shooting my new Open blaster, and have video of myself dot hunting (you know, rotational wrist exercises). What amazes me after I shoot a stage with it, and see the hits that I thought wouldn't be there the way the dot was moving.

Its pretty neat when your spiffy new Aimpoint starts alternating on/off with each shot.

[Harmon]

i think the deal with the dot is it leads to over aiming.

the dot is on target but the shooter tends to "try" to align something since there are no "sights" all this is happening when the other guys are shooting instead of trying to aim.

[Jake Di Vita]

Harmon has a point but is that is only half of it.

You can get trapped into 1 of 2 things with a dot. Over aiming or thinking the dot gives you a license not to aim.

It does take some time to get used to it, but the best remedy to what you are feeling now is practice. Shoot 10,000 rounds through it and your body will figure out what it needs to do to shoot with a dot.

What you mentioned about the dot showing you all your mistakes is very true, which is one of the reasons I think a red dot sight is the best tool for a shooter. Don't forget though that the dot doesn't have to be still to make the shot. The great thing about a dot is it gives you immediate feedback to whether or not you can break the shot when not everything is perfect.

[caspian38]

an Aredondo ( I can't spell it ) thumb rest helps with some of the dot chatter... you also might try tuning the gun ... I found that different recoil and main springs helped a lot. my dot was doing an upside down cross sort of thing ... I was able to get rid of it by lightening the mainspring and getting a recoil master.

Let your eyes lead the dot... don't follow it around.

you might load up some mags and run them dry as fast as possible while watching the dot ... for the first couple shots you might blink ... but after that you will start to watch it go up and down.

and start wearing all black It will look cool with your new shinny wrap around glasses ... you haven't even shot on the move yet with your open gun and your already thinking like an open shooter . yeah its because of the blast ... we know.

best of luck ... and yes I have some shinny wrap around glasses next to my open gun.

c38

Edited April 5, 2006 by caspian38

[John Dunn]

getting a recoil master

I'll be cold in my grave before I put a RM in another gun.

I'll probably mess around with the loads some more (might try some 115s) before I mess with the springs.

I spoke with Ron last night and got squared away on a few things. Thanks for the info folks.

start wearing all black

If I do that, don't I technically have to shoot a man in Reno, just to watch him die? I already get enough crap for wearing tactical britches.

[Flexmoney]

Have you done the <required> timing/grip drills that Burketts posts on his site?

[John Dunn]

Flex, I'm kinda surprised you posted something so mean-spirited......you know I haven't actually done anything of the sort.

[Bret Heidkamp]

John - I'm so glad to see this topic - this is what I've told "limited only" shooters for YEARS. Nothing will teach you how to shoot like shooting Open. I don't mean that in a snotty way whatsoever. It just shows you different things. Just like irons show you different things.

Most people around here these days seem to have an anti-open approach and won't touch an open gun. I think it makes one a much better limited shooter, because you don't know how fast you can really go and how much feedback you get until you start pushing with an open gun.

Welcome aboard, and I might see you guys in Cheyenne.

[Nate]

Bret, It's funny you mentioned the go fast idea after shooting an open gun. I am experiencing that a little bit this spring. I really can put two on a partial fast with a limited gun at 12 yards. Takes some courage though. Nate

[Bret Heidkamp]

Cool !! Was that after shooting Open for a bit? I have to admit I've never seen you with an Open gun yet.

[Nate]

Yea, I got one a year and some ago. Benny made it run and I have been playing with it when I practiced this winter. I am tring to figure out trigger at distance. I get a nice red line in the brown and crank away. Grip is different................. I may shoot it after area 1. I will bring it to Bozeman and you can have a good chuckle.