persona non grata Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 (edited) greetings from the great state of Texas! shot this practical/tactical pistol match over the weekend. been out of shooting comps for like 15 years or so. everyone was really nice, except for this one range Nazi. after the stage, he said i should watch my muzzle direction when i was reloading at slide lock. i think it was something for him to say to get under my skin, or he is just showing his ignorance about guns being perfectly safe when they're empty and at slide lock. my gun went to slide lock, bring gun in close to me, flip my grip just wee bit so my thumb can hit the mag release, so gun is pointed upward say somewhere between perfectly down range and 45 degrees up wards, grab fresh mag, stuff fresh mag, start to point the gun perfectly down range towards target again, hit the slide lock, gun goes back into battery, track to target, BANG! BANG! doesn't everybody do their reloads like that? where's your muzzle go when you reload? or should i say something to the match director about this clueless zealous range Nazi? John Daniels Edited March 29, 2006 by persona non grata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 What were you pointing it over the berm? or were you breaking the 180, neither of which is addressed in IDPA, so telll the MD... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob 2316 Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 As the RO, he may have seen something that concerned him. A potential accidental discharge over the berm could cause aqlot of headaches and heartaches for alot of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al503 Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 i think it was something for him to say to get under my skin, or he is just showing his ignorance about guns being perfectly safe when they're empty and at slide lock. I have to disagree with you. I think you have to assume that the gun is never perfectly safe between LAMR and Hammer down, Holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911user Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 (edited) As the RO, he may have seen something that concerned him. A potential accidental discharge over the berm could cause aqlot of headaches and heartaches for alot of people. If the RO/SO concern was finger on or close to the trigger during the reload, then he has a good point but should have said something about trigger finger not the slide angle. If he's one that thinks all reloads should be done with the slide pointing only at the berm, then what business does he have being an RO unless they have range-specific rules that everyone should know about. I'd talk to the RO for clarification then likely the MD. Range-nazi ROs (or SOs) don't help any sport. Edited March 29, 2006 by 1911user Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 In international IPSC, particularly in Europe, pointing the muzzle over the berm for a reload (or any other reason) can be a no-no due to local jurisdiction's firearms rules. In the US, it's almost always not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 ...or he is just showing his ignorance about guns being perfectly safe when they're empty and at slide lock. I wouldn't go calling a guy a Nazi for pointing out a potetial safety issue. Perhaps, he saw something (muzzle direction) that warranted the words of caution? After all, that is what he is there to do, watch the gun for safety. The shooter has a lot more going on. He is most likely volunteering his time and energy to help run a fun and safe match. His words might have been a friendly word to help you avoid getting DQ'ed from the match...and, more importantly, to help keep the match safe for all the other people at the range. FIRST LAW... THE GUN IS ALWAYS LOADED! SECOND LAW... NEVER POINT THE GUN AT SOMETHINGYOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY! THIRD LAW... ALWAYS BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEHIND IT! FOURTH LAW... KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET! Sorry for the CAP's...I just copied and pasted the text in and it was in CAP's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kruger Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 (edited) Could it be, that under match conditions, you were bringing the gun up more than 45 degrees? If your angle was larger, you might be making the SO nervous enough to generate comments. From the SO's perspective it could look like the muzzle was getting close to pointing towards your head... On a related note: IDPA to IPSC translator: s/muzzle safe point/180/ If you turn the gun during your reload (a common technique), and your torso is already turned toward the muzzle safe point, you can exceed the muzzle safe point. There is no provision for pointing a gun past the muzzle safe points. DQ. Several months ago I had to DQ a shooter on his first stage for much the same reasons. He was turned towards the muzzle safe point to engage the last target. Instead of turning down range to unload and show clear, he dropped the magazine and racked the slide while still turned. In doing so, he turned the gun past the muzzle safe point. It royally sucks to have to safety DQ someone on their first stage. Respectfully, Mark Kruger Edited March 29, 2006 by kruger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 (edited) +1 to Flex. Pointing this out is NOT being a Range Nazi. Now if the guy was an a_-hole about it, he's still not a Nazi, just rude, but right. Pointing the gun over the berm is very much a no-no. Always. But, you say, it isn't loaded. In addition to what Flex said (they are always loaded), when you seat the mag, the gun is for all purposes, loaded - you ever had a gun flip into battery unexpectedly when you slam home a mag? I have. Glocks do it a lot. Now you've got a hot weapon pointed into the sky. Nope. I believe a gun at slide lock, no ammo in a mag, laying on a table is perfectly safe, still don't want it pointed at me. Gun in someone's hand at slide lock and a guy getting ready to stuff a hot mag in it is NOT perfectly safe. I don't see any ignorance on the part of the SO. Ok, sorry to hammer you John, but there is one more point. If you've laid off for 15 years, you may be coming back into a heightend sense of safety. I don't know your age, but my dad (late 60's) and his dad, both military, have terrible safety practices - just wasn't the way they learned. The didn't wear safety glasses or ear protection either. Edited March 30, 2006 by Gun Geek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek45 Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Travis Reload Video thread . . . http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...topic=34005&hl= http://www.shred2.net/~shred/gallery/DTC06/DTC06_TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 So, a bunch of you are saying that pointing over the berm on a reload is not common? I say it is very common. If you are far from the berm how can you not? And I mean a speed reload with a round in chamber. You don't see many reloads with muzzle taking a nosedive. If you don't believe me, put links to some of the match videos up again; ones that we've already seen everybody doing this in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek45 Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 (edited) link to full size voigt pic. Edited March 30, 2006 by Derek45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911user Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 In international IPSC, particularly in Europe, pointing the muzzle over the berm for a reload (or any other reason) can be a no-no due to local jurisdiction's firearms rules. In the US, it's almost always not. Do US competitors have to relearn how to reload for international matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Do US competitors have to relearn how to reload for international matches? You should if you plan to shoot in Germany. Fun matches, but the laws they have to live with are a little screwy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewcolglazier Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Pointing the gun over the berm is very much a no-no. Always.But, you say, it isn't loaded. In addition to what Flex said (they are always loaded), when you seat the mag, the gun is for all purposes, loaded - you ever had a gun flip into battery unexpectedly when you slam home a mag? I have. Glocks do it a lot. Now you've got a hot weapon pointed into the sky. Nope. I believe a gun at slide lock, no ammo in a mag, laying on a table is perfectly safe, still don't want it pointed at me. Gun in someone's hand at slide lock and a guy getting ready to stuff a hot mag in it is NOT perfectly safe. I don't see any ignorance on the part of the SO. I have to disagree. I have had a very few SOs who have warned me about muzzle direction while reloading, and it was always while doing reloads with the muzzle mid-high left and pointing over the berm, at slidelock. Being an SO, I want to see the gun while the shooter is going through a course of fire. Noobs bury the gun in their navals when reloading.... I want the gun high so I can see what they are doing (it's better for them, too). Most SOs ROs who have been doing it very long at all know better than to jump on a shooter for lifting the muzzle while doing a reload. Of course, there are limits..... Andy C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persona non grata Posted March 30, 2006 Author Share Posted March 30, 2006 yeah, my reload looked like pics Derek45 posted. just because everybody else does a reload like that doesn't make it okay. there weren't any previous range rules mentioned before the start of the match. i alwayz make it a point to keep my finger out of the trigger while doing a reload. this SO's score and my score were real close, so i'm thinking he just said it to rattle my nerves hoping that he would hurt my final score. think my shooting buddies are going have to videotape our stages just to keep partial SO's at bay. that kind of egotistical trip you up mentality doesn't belogn in any sport, specially the supposedly impartial referees of the sport. now, i'm trying to remmember why i left the sport 15 years ago..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwmagnus Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 I have mixed emotions over this one. Generally I agree with most here that say the muzzle stays down range below the top of the berm. Problem with that is zero people do it so I guess it's going to be a short match and easy to score all with DQ's. I also agree as an SO I like to see the gun all the time. Now enter the mixed emotions, try reloading under the berm with a revolver! I've seen the two schools or reloading with the wheelie, flip the gun reload using strong hand or reload with weak hand but both suggest flipping the gun 180* verticle to extract the empties. Now that's way over the berm! BTW I've never seen anyone extract empties keeping the gun horzontal or close to it. I also know the rule the gun is presumed loaded all the time until the clear command is given, hence the safety rules posted above. So we have a delima here. Guess common sense rules in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Precision Designs Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 It is a "cunnundrum" for sure. RO's are constantly debating as to how far a shooter is allowed to go before droping the hatchett. Safety, of course is always paramount. At the recent Florida State Championships, there were the usual DQ's. Two of them were appropos with this thread. Both of them involved AD's "over the berm" while reloading. One of them was by a "newbie" junior. The other one was by a GM which was also doing duties as RO in a different stage. Talk about a bummer! (Side Note: Both times the culprit reason was attributed to a "supelight" trigger pull, resulting in "trigger bounce" compounded by the "high angle" of the gun while reloading... and a fast, swift, hard hand smack to sit the mag in place... bad, bad formula!!!) So... beware of the "high angle" reload. It can, and will bite you in the butt, even when done from slide-lock, as the jarring from sitting the mag can, and will, dislodge the slide-lock, and/or bounce your trigger in that "marginally safe" trigger job. Results? -<Shudder>- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overhung Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 So what is the issue, that someone said something to you, or the way they said it. And yes as an SO it is his duty to point out things, but it is annoying when 1 guy out of a 1000 points out something. Maybe your reload was inexplicbly high and you were caught up in the moment. But questioning the SO is not going to solve any thing, "Yes sir!" to his face, and he is happy; "F(#$* You!" under your breath, and your happy. But listen and maybe somethinjg of value was said. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 So, after the stage, he advises you to watch your muzzle on reloads and he is a "Clueless Zealous Range Nazi"? If that still sounds right to you, I would advise you to find another game. You don't have the temperament to participate in this sport. I am a veteran RO (NROI - CRO) and I have run literally thousands upon thousands of shooters through thousands of stages. Similarly, I know, or have been run by, hundreds of RO's; some certified, some not. Are all RO's always right? Well no, certainly not in my opinion, not even me on occasion in retrospect. In some regards, a self-identified "returning shooter" is worse than a complete newbie when it comes to getting up to speed in competition. The two biggest problems are 1) bad habits formed years ago that are now firmly implanted and will only be resolved after great effort, and 2) a self-image that precludes anyone from saying anything to them about their shooting other than to compliment them. You will occasionally run across an RO, particularly at club matches, that is not what we would all like to see running shooters. I'm not saying that is the issue here. From what you presented in your post, my perspective is that your reaction is out of proportion to the event. If you continue in this game you will get similar advice and more. You will hear the command "Muzzle" and "Finger" and will have to respond appropriately. You will be warned about sweeping. You may be stopped in the middle of a stage for reasons you don't understand. You may be DQ'd when you don't agree to be DQ'd. If you can get your mind right about these things, you can participate and have some fun, but if my comments have served only to piss you off some more....well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwmagnus Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Actually I welcome a warning such as Finger, Muzzle etc. IDPA tends to issue warnings before penalties or DQ. IPSC not so, seems to be more harsh. IMO when an RO/SO is on top of things they can issue warnings perhaps preventing a DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 (edited) I R.O.ed a "Top 5" Shooter at a big match once. The stage was designed so that one way to shoot it was to run to the right along a wall and then run back to the left along the down range side of the wall (Ea. way was about 4 steps). When the "Top 5" Shooter ran back to the right along the down range side of the wall being right handed his muzzle hit around 178 degrees if not closer to the 180. I was watching the gun closely so I didn't say anything at the time but after he unloaded and showed clear and the stage was scored I approached him away from everyone else and stated "Your muzzle hit the 178-179 area when you cut back to the right." He replied "Did it? That wall fooled me a little I guess because it doesn't sit directly perpendicular to the range. Thanks, I'll watch that." Later on during the match he did some great favors for me including a little instruction. Everyone gets caught up in the game and does things they don't intend to do. It's how you react when reminded that determines if you'll go to far and get DQed and sometimes it's the way you're reminded that determines it. Edited April 1, 2006 by Bigbadaboom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear23 Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 I think it never hurts to bring up a potential safety problem. I've seen many reloads where the gun is angled up and brought in close, only with the muzzle pointing right at the competitors head...... maybe this is what he saw from his angle. I never question someone elses judgment while on the range on a safety call. Itf they saw it, i believe 'em....The possible end result of being negligent are well, unthinkable. I wouldn't call someone like that a Nazi...only someone who has your best possible interest in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 I approached him away from everyone else and stated "Your muzzle hit the 178-179 area when you cut back to the right." He replied "Did it? That wall fooled me a little I guess because it doesn't sit directly perpendicular to the range. Thanks, I'll watch that." Sometimes it's not what people say, it's how they say it. Last year at Area One there was a target right on the 180. Some argued it was a 180 trap, but the match staff looked at it as, "...an opportunity to go home." Word was out that the RO was getting upset about folks pushing the 180 and he was, shall we say becoming a bit grouchy. I chose to shoot the target on the move and I knew I would be close, and I also knew the RO would be watching like a hawk. After my run he admonished me about the 180 telling me in a stern (actually obnoxious) voice, "You almost broke the 180." I replied, "Yeah I know. Hell of a place to put a target isn't it?" The same RO admonished another forum member on my squad about the 180 and the forum member replied something to the effect of, "Thank you sir. I'll be more careful in the future." Yet another forum member was told he almost earned a DQ for breaking the 180. The forum memebr asked the RO if he (the shooter) had broken the 180. The reply was "no". The shooter informed the RO to, "Get out of my face. You can hand me a roll of tape if I ever do..." In all three cases, the RO implied the shooter had done something wrong by the tone of his tone of voice and by his body language. The guy would have been better off to say nothing. If he wanted to bring the topic up, he could have done it in a non-threatening fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 (edited) greetings from the great state of Texas!shot this practical/tactical pistol match over the weekend. been out of shooting comps for like 15 years or so. everyone was really nice, except for this one range Nazi. after the stage, he said i should watch my muzzle direction when i was reloading at slide lock. i think it was something for him to say to get under my skin, or he is just showing his ignorance about guns being perfectly safe when they're empty and at slide lock. my gun went to slide lock, bring gun in close to me, flip my grip just wee bit so my thumb can hit the mag release, so gun is pointed upward say somewhere between perfectly down range and 45 degrees up wards, grab fresh mag, stuff fresh mag, start to point the gun perfectly down range towards target again, hit the slide lock, gun goes back into battery, track to target, BANG! BANG! doesn't everybody do their reloads like that? where's your muzzle go when you reload? John Daniels Just my opinion. MUZZLE ALWAYS POINTS DEAD DOWNRANGE (finger along side of the slide). If it's a gun with a double stack mag (which is tapered at the top and easy to seat "blind"), I leave the gun about out near shooting position pointed downrange and just slap the mag in from underneath. Gun stays in normal upright position, pointed downrange. For a single stack with no magwell (which is a royal beeatch to get the mag in without hanging a lip on the frame): Bring the gun in closer to you and rotate it upward just enough to see the magwell opening, still pointing the muzzle downrange. You have to "look the magazine" in as you insert it or you will hose it up. It takes full attention as you do this. Muzzle always points downrange. That's EXACTLY what I do except I rotate the gun so the muzzle isn't pointed into the sky. No big effort to turn the gun a bit. I like his intense concentration on looking the mag into the gun....... that's exactly how to do it. I don't get the gun as close to my face as the gentleman on top...... I'd need my reading glasses to see anything that close! Edited April 11, 2006 by bountyhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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