Subgun Vs. Grandmaster Smackdown

[George]

Anything that needs to be fired from a shoulder mount to achieve accurate shot placement is going to be slower gettingg through any COF featuring movement and wide angle target transitions than a race pistol will be.

My practical experience with PCC's and .223 rifles running CQ pistol stages is that they are always at a disadvantage compared to a pistol until the target distance opens up a good bit. Past thirty to 35 yards an accurate PCC or .223 carbine takes the prize, but at CQ distances, NFW anyone with a shoulder mounted weapon beats the experienced pistol shooter, no matter how good the long/sub-gunner is.

[carcass]

Holy Crap, what did I start!?

I am probably going to be at the shoot. Whether or not my subgun will be is up to the BATF (I have to fax my "permission slip" in on Monday, which is cutting it a little close).

My original "challenge," if it can be said to be one (and I never really meant it that way, but, OK, we can do this ), was to see whether a GM could put 2 rounds in the 'A' zone faster than a subgunner could put in 4. Both to start in surrender position, weapons slung or holstered as appropriate.

I will concede that a GM will make minced meat of almost anyone with a subgun when reloads are involved. With, say, an UZI, or a tricked out MAC, mag changes are the weak point because the mag generally has to be extracted with the off hand (the mag releases are not convenient to the strong hand). With a Thompson or MP5

(with a button mag release), the mag can be dropped rather quickly, but reinsertion is somewhat more awkward.

Keep in mind, that some of the guys shooting "open" -style MACs are darn fast. The trend in subgun competition, however, is to get weapons with as LOW a cyclic rate as possible, to improve burst control. This challenge would kind of go against the spirit of subgun competition. This is because one of the primary goals of subgun competition is ammo conservation. That's why subgun courses usually have a very high target count, with lots of no-shoots close in to the threat targets--the idea is to show how good you are at trigger modulation, rather than rewarding spray-and-pray.

Anyway, this would be interesting. I don't know if it could be set up at KCR, as the ranges are used all day every day, and any timer would get pretty darn confused with all the firing going on. Perhaps a different venue would be appropriate. I shoot in Western PA, so maybe if one of the USPSA clubs out here would oblige, we could give it a try (I shoot at East Huntingdon, Pitcairn-Monroeville, and Clairton most frequently).

Also, a pitch for my club: Castlewood Rod and Gun club, east of New Castle, will be hosting USPSA matches this year for the first time (except for our inaugural match last fall). Go Here for a match schedule.

OK...I dug up my $50 holster (as opposed to the $15 holster I've been using) and set a dry-fire target at 20y in the basement. Knob Creek is the second weekend in April...I should be free that weekend (no mathces to help run). Looks like a 6 hour drive.

1. Can a guy with a slung sub-gun get on target from surrender quickly?

2. I can't decide if 20y helps me or hurts me?

3. Is it worth the gas money?

If you're in Columbus, it's way closer than 6 hours. It only takes me 6.5, and I live north of Pittsburgh.

As to whether it's worth it, I would say that if you've never been to the Creek before, it's worth it just to go once. It's a really incredible gun show, not to mention the shoot.

[chuckbradley]

It totally depends on stage design. I have run stages before with both guns. If you have to aim and transition allot the pistol wins. If its a hoser the MP5 wins. This is with the same shooter. A GM with a pistol will beat just about anybody with a subgun regardless of the course.

[shred]

As a C-limited shooter (the last time I got to play subguns-vs-pistols on the same IPSC stages), I could do better with a MP5 over a Glock 23 almost every time. I've seen a lot of cops in the C-limited kind of skill ranges...

Nowdays.. I dunno.. quick, somebody ship me an MP5 and pallet of ammo.

[DougCarden]

Hmmmmm....I am taking two of my guys to the range tomorrow morning for refresher skills on the MP5........and I am taking my SS .45 rig for some practice as well....(My .40 is still at the smith..... ) I will have to take my open steel gun as well. This could be fun!

DougC

[TonyH]

Flex

I'll be at Knob Creek, but I doubt they will break from there format to set anything else up. It's a pretty busy place with all that goes on there.

But it is a site to see if you have never been there.

Chuck is right on with his comment.

[Kevin Kline]

Leo,

Todd and Chuck on the basic reasons. One, like Todd says, the Open gun is impractical to a SWAT guy. Now, depending on the course of fire, like Chuck says, depends on who wins. If you're talking about courses 30yards and beyond, the subgun has a huge advantage. If you're shooting close targets and lots of transitions, the Open gun will win.

When we do our drills, I can knock out targets 30-60 yards very easily and pretty quickly and still have center A zone hits, pretty much. It would take a bit longer with the Open gun. Plus, one of the reasons for the subgun, especially on entries, is overwelming firepower. Going full auto on a target 7 yards and in (ie search warrant) and giving them 4-6 rounds is a lot faster and overpowering than with the Open gun. Plus an Open gun can not do entries for the obvious numerous reasons.

From the draw and beginning, of course shouldering a weapons is going to be longer than shooting your Open gun. Now, plate racks, I think the Open gun wins, again, a GM shooting Open. I can hose the plate racks pretty quick with my subgun, so if you've got a B or C shooter, I can probably take them, but not GM's.

All depends on stage design, transitions, distance of targets, etc. Subgun is useful for the longer shots and overwelming firepower in close. Again, the obvious idea for overwelming firepower is to put them down as fast as possible.

[a-44978]

I know this is late but i just saw this thread.

I'm but a lowly "B" limited shooter and hope to practice with an occasional 3-gunner who's got some cool toys.

My position is i'll beat him with a long gun on short courses.

I will get him on either score or time.

Me semi-auto him slect fire.

His score will suffer or his time will suffer.

I do need to set up some standerds and speed shoots in addtition to field courses.

My thing is field courses,oh yes,field courses.

In my opinion it would take a good "A" shooter to maybe beat a "B",given these parameters.

A "GM" would yawn at this challenge.(MY OPINION MIND YOU).

A Falshback in time for me .............................................

The first time I met Jeff D. (OLD SCHOOL GM,NOT OLD).He talked about this very subject,but to be fair.At that skill level an airsoft gun is dangerous.

All things being equal full auto losses in this venue

[dirtypool40]

Doug K. was on TV several years ago racing a guy with a subgun, and Doug won. And nothing has changed..........

...an M4 in .223 is even better, giving the operator alot more options in converting cover to concealment, or defeating body armor, then a 9mm at whatever velocity regardless of bullet type or contruction.

So what we really need is a team of GM's shooting open guns in .224 boz?

[Bob Hostetter]

.224 BOZ...........? I still have a box of that stuff..............

[Kyreb]

Been to Knob Creek many, many times. I personally have never seen anyone there that could hold a candle to your average C class IPSC competitor.

IMHO..The MG rental range there is a tragic accident waiting to happen. Only a matter of time with the poor gun handling by the renters and lack of adequate RO supervision there.

Their game is more "see what neat toys I have" and seeing how much lead they can throw downrange in the fastest manner, actually hitting anything qualifies as a distant second place.

Still, it is a heck of a good time. Wish I was going this weekend. I'd just stay near the main range and the gun show tents.

[John Heiter]

I saw this one done at our local club match last month. We had a guy trying to prepare for a big sub-gun match out west who wanted to use our match as practice. He shot head to head against a mixed group of shooters on a variety of stages ranging from longer field courses to spray n pray all steel stuff and while it looked like he had a lot of fun, it just wasn't that impressive. I know I was a little stunned when he missed some of the full sized poppers and had to make up shots on the all steel speed shoot.

John

[MD1911]

I agree with Chuck and Tony. We have shot our club IPSC match with pistol and then with subgun. Pistol wins 95% of the time. The subgun is faster on the splits but indexes slower. Most timers will not pick up the split times of a subgun. If you are shooting one target 5 to 10 times the subgun would win, but in a field course a pistol would be faster most of the time. We set up a steel plate side match at Knob Creek a few years ago. 3 levels 4 plates each 12 plates total set at about 15 to 17 yards Mongo won the match with a mid 2 sec. run. It did take him about 30 or 40 rounds to do it but with one triger pull. I don't think a pistol could beat that.

Leaving for the creek in the morning

Malcome

[iainmcphersn]

Sounds like there were a number of good shooters at the Creek this weekend. Anyone have the match results? They are not posted on the Knob Creek website yet.

Shooting Gallery was supposed to be filming as well. Anyone here get any camera time?

[dirtypool40]

we had a short re-hash of this GM vs. Subgun this past weekend post match at the BBQ place.

New shooters still think an MP5 in average hands out runs a GM. When they piped up with "But IT shoots so fast" people were jumping up like a sports book had opened it's windows. "I'll take some of that action" seemed to be the most popular response.

[SinistralRifleman]

I shoot better with a sub-gun than with a pistol. I dunno about GMs, but shooting a sub-gun against people who are better than me with handguns I can usually do as well or better depending on the course of fire.

If you are forcing the sub-gun shooter to shoot on full-auto, of course they will be slower on most courses, particularly on things like plates that take only one round to neutralize.

Apparently I shoot weak hand only subgun, a lot better than most people shoot week hand only pistol; http://www.cavalryarms.com/3gun/2005results-2.jpg look at the results from stage 7

Edited April 10, 2006 by SinistralRifleman

[MiniUzi]

I'll take some of that action....and I ain't no GM.

I'm in Florida with a subgun or two and willing to put this to the test if you really want to see how this plays out. I'm an average subgun shooter who competes at both Knob Creek and also in Palm Bay Florida on a monthly basis. I've only been shooting in competition for about 2 years now but I love the sport. I'd be more than glad to go head to head with you and video tape it for all to see if the group wants to choose a course of fire or two which had no bias in either direction.

-Todd

[Silentgun]

I'll take some of that action....and I ain't no GM.

I'm in Florida with a subgun or two and willing to put this to the test if you really want to see how this plays out. I'm an average subgun shooter who competes at both Knob Creek and also in Palm Bay Florida on a monthly basis. I've only been shooting in competition for about 2 years now but I love the sport. I'd be more than glad to go head to head with you and video tape it for all to see if the group wants to choose a course of fire or two which had no bias in either direction.

-Todd

I'am your hukkleberry