Hank Ellis Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Let's assume the following. Limited or L-10 running a .45 single-stack in major pf. The gun breaks down and can't be fixed. I have a substitute Production legal gun available in 9mm. I have satisfied 5.1.7.1 and 5.1.7.2 of the 2004 rules. If I have stats recalc my entire match to minor, will I be in compliance of 5.1.7.3 and be able to use the substitute? This also assumes that the MD approves the swap and that chrono of the 9mm makes minor. A search found this thread but it's obviously based on rules that have changed. I can't find anything that says I can't use the substitute in the example. Did I miss something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 (edited) Actually it would the RM who makes that decision (one in the same at a lot of local matches, though), but I can't see anything in your scenario that would make someone NOT want to approve the substitution. It satisfies all the subsections of 5.1.7, so if were me, I would allow it. As far as the stats situation, if the match is using EzWinScore, it's an easy fix to change the shooter to Minor. Edited March 21, 2006 by ima45dv8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 This is a subject on which I wish there were more guidelines. I was shooting at an area match when a friends Para broke the barrel in the middle of a stage. It was a .45 caliber limited gun and his back-up gun was a single stack 45. He approached the RM and requested permision to substitute the gun and the RM initially denied the substitution saying that the guns were different and the single stack could be perceived to be an advantage. After a lengthy debate, the substitution was allowed and the match continued without incident, beyond a DNF on the stage. My back-up gun is not identical to my primary gun and I wonder if I would be allowed to substitute in the event of a gun failure. I would hope that the fact that I chose to shoot my primary gun as proof that it is a superior weapon over the back-up gun. I would hate to have the same match director determine that my back-up gun was superior to my primary and disallow the substitution. They are both the same caliber and capacity and share the same ammunition. What guidelines are they required to follow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 The only guidelines I'm aware of are these: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s original handgun and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute handgun and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied: 5.1.7.1 The substitute handgun satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division. 5.1.7.2 In using the substitute handgun the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage. 5.1.7.3 The competitor’s ammunition, when tested in the substitute handgun attains the minimum power factor using the match chronograph (see Rule 5.6.3.9). +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It seems to (deliberately) leave out any mention of the back-up having to be the same make, or model, or type. It just has to meet the requirements of the division, not provide a competitive advantage, and make at least Minor power factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 There used to be language about same type of handgun, but that language was dropped. When you substitute your ammo and gun has to be chronographed, if one is used. In the scenario above as soon as he is chronographed he would be declared minor and all of his scores would be adjusted to minor. Not as complicated as it used to be. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireant Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 What would constitue an advantage? I understand going from a single stack in L-10 to a wide body, but what else. I don't mean open guns either. If my main limited gun was an Eagle, short dust cover and my back-up was an edge? What about a Glock as a back-up to an STI? I mean how do you tell what is an adventage to one person over a disadvantage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Any advantage...to me...would be using your PPC/Bullseye gun for the tight 50y standards stage, then switching to your light-weight steel challenge gun to shoot the speed shoot stage that had long transitions. Or some such non-sense. The point being (with me guessing) is that we don't want competitors showing up with a range bag full of guns and picking and choosing which gun to use for each stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 For what it is worth, I think the best answer I have heard on this one is "If the shooter could gain an advantage with it, it wouldn't be in his range bag as a back up gun." Sounded good to me. Flex is also right, we don't want the "stage specific" gun selection to rear it's ugly head. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Anyone for tactical golf??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Ellis Posted March 22, 2006 Author Share Posted March 22, 2006 Thanks all. Thought I had it right. One way to prevent 'tactical golf' would allow only one substitute gun per match and you can't go back to your primary. If you break two guns in a match you really need to evaluate your Karma, your gunsmith, or both. Granted the RM has final say but it'd be hard to say no as long as your replacement gun is reasonably close to your primary gun. This all came up as I've watched a couple a guns break at local matches and luckily someone had a spare so the competitor could finish the match. Going to a major match and I was wanting to bring the Production gun as the backup. Now, if I shoot Production at a major match I'm back to having no spare. Sigh. Guess I'll just have to buy another gun. Darn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdgun Posted March 23, 2006 Share Posted March 23, 2006 This is funny, I was thinking about this same subject. I shoot in Revolver Div. right now my main gun is a 5" 610, My back up is a 5" 625. In my eyes I do not see any advantage. Does any one see one. Now, lets say my back up was a 4" 625. Is there an advantage? The reason I ask is, I love to shoot the 610 but really do not want to spend the money on a back up. I do have 2 625s. 5" and 4". or, does any one out there want to make a deal for a 610? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 right now my main gun is a 5" 610, My back up is a 5" 625.In my eyes I do not see any advantage. Does any one see one. Now, lets say my back up was a 4" 625. Is there an advantage? Hell, hdgun, as long as the back-up revolver is division-legal and makes chrono I certainly don't see how any significant competitive advantage could be gained with either option. Moreover, I can virtually guarantee you that nobody else shooting revolver at the match would ever dream of raising such an issue. I wouldn't worry about it one bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdgun Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 KOOL!! Thats kinda what I thought but wanted to get another opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MI_Packer Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Any advantage...to me...would be using your PPC/Bullseye gun for the tight 50y standards stage, then switching to your light-weight steel challenge gun to shoot the speed shoot stage that had long transitions. Or some such non-sense. The point being (with me guessing) is that we don't want competitors showing up with a range bag full of guns and picking and choosing which gun to use for each stage. Wouldn't the shooter be subject to unsportsmanlike conduct if he did this? 10.6.1 for cheating or dishonesty? The shooter would be lying about the gun breaking, thus rewquiring the swap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Oh..I don't know. Kinda subjective. Instead of being unsportsmanlike...they would be being extra-sporty...trying to push the rules envelope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Rosenthal Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 (edited) Everyone has overlooked the obvious... The guy shooting Limited or L-10 has an advantage over the Production shooters from his holster + mag placement on the belt on the stages already completed. Not to mention bull barrels, tungsten guide rods, magwells, extended buttons... ETC. I, as a match director would not allow the substitution based on these advantages. Wouldn't be fair for the production shooters who have to reach to the middle of their back for the next reload! Edited March 30, 2006 by Bill Rosenthal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Bill .. he would still be scored as limited .. but with a production gun and scored minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Rosenthal Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Bill .. he would still be scored as limited .. but with a production gun and scored minor. Forgot that one... Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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