Saiga-12

[KentG]

Where can I find info on buying one of these??? Wholesaler, dealer, I dont care. I just want to see what they have coming in the 12 ga. models.

[Still Praying]

Shoot, I don't want to see them in open either. I'm just now getting to a point where I can almost run my Remy. I sure would hate to put it in the back of my safe now, after I've done all of this work and testing on it.

Ronnie

[chp5]

I shot one only once. I liked it. However I found the "pointability" of it inferior - or at least different - to my M1S90.

With the M1S90 I'm looking down the rib to the target. The Saiga is more akin to shooting a rifle where you have bore offset.

I'm for letting them into Tactical/Limited - as long as I can get my hands on one . . .

[markO]

It appears the Saiga 10-round metal magazines are currently being tested:

http://www.saigasolutions.com/12.html

If you look at the website's forum, you'll see that they are coming soon at a to-be-determined price. It's just a matter of time at this point.

They have been working on the mags for about a year. I have a saiga with 10 round mags they are the plastic they work good would like to get so other mags but it is hard to find the 5 or 8 round mags any were, the 8 rounders go for about $150 ea when i bought my 5 rounders they were $25.00 ea.

[ArnisAndyz]

Allowing the Saiga in Tactical division will only help the sport and development of the shotgun overall. Think about it, what will Remington, Winchester, Benelli do if everyone starts using box-fed autoloader Saigas? Most likely it will force them to do some R&D and develop thier own magazine fed shotguns to retain a piece of the market. Competition is good for business as it forces the companies to advance or loose money.

[Middle Man]

Think about it, what will Remington, Winchester, Benelli do if everyone starts using box-fed autoloader Saigas?

Ignore it.

Individual perception is not reality.

[ArnisAndyz]

During the heyday of the musclecar, when the gas crunch hit, what did the big 3 US automakers do when they realized people were buying smaller more gas efficient Japanese cars? Some came out with newer more efficient models, others bought Japanese cars and relabeled them as thier own just to keep market share. In either case they were forced to adjust to the (then) current situation, which advanced thier technology (look at all the retro musclecars today that get decent gas milage).

The magazine-fed shotgun is a more of an advancement than the tube magazine, but unfortunatly it probably won't be supported by 3-gunners. But hey...people still hunt with black powder and bows and arrows.

[Middle Man]

Magazine fed shotguns and conversion kits (other than the Saiga) have been on the market for years without any great deal of commerical success.

[Wakal]

That is, I suspect, due more to the lack of decent magazines than any other reason.

There has been only a handful of shotgun models with 10 (or better) round magazines; the most available (was) a 12.5 pound monstrosity that takes either two men and a Sherpa or one Mongo-sized guy to tote around.

The Saiga is a fast and reliable platform, but is hampered by the 8-round (hard to find) factory magazines or the "American issue" 5-round mags. A 5-round magazine vs. a 10-round tube isn't exactly a fair fight, the way most courses of fire are laid out. A ten round magazine vs. a 10 round tube, though, is a different story...one reload to two (and a half)...

I suspect, as others have posted, that once a functional 10-round magazine is commercially available, the Saigas will be very popular. They are getting a lot of attention now with just the Russian 8's and the homebuilt 10's.

Heck, Kay Clark has a Saiga-20. I know, I sold it to her

Alex

[Loves2Shoot]

I got A S12. I think it has potential, but would need a lot of work to make it shoot nearly as nice as my Benelli. The mags were much harder to change than I anticipated and you have to grind the bolt to make it reloadable with 8 round mags.

I think it would be a valid patform if bigger mags were available that were easier to reload and it shot better. I like the feel of my Benelli so much better, and I really wanted to like the S12.

For now, I've decided to learn how to re-load a tuber rather than dump $ into the Saiga. If I had lots of money and time I would probably work with it.

[Keith]

I sold my original Saiga 12 guage simply because of the scarce magazines, although I did have five 5 rounders, and the ruling that put me into open class. Looking back it is the only semi-auto shotgun that never, ever, malfunctioned on me. No matter what I shoved in it, it ate it up and spit it out. I put over 500 rounds through the thing without cleaning it. And it was downright accurate with Remington Sluggers, too.

If they actually do become available again, with hi-caps, I will definately buy one to replace it.

[shred]

Allowing the Saiga in Tactical division will only help the sport and development of the shotgun overall. Think about it, what will Remington, Winchester, Benelli do if everyone starts using box-fed autoloader Saigas? Most likely it will force them to do some R&D and develop thier own magazine fed shotguns to retain a piece of the market. Competition is good for business as it forces the companies to advance or loose money.

The problem is there's very little market in the US for "action" shotguns, and mag-feeders even less. For a major mfg to tool up and build one looking at a market that's quite possibly less than 1000 units, total is a heck of a risk.

How many active 3-gunners are there?

[SinistralRifleman]

Allowing the Saiga in Tactical division will only help the sport and development of the shotgun overall. Think about it, what will Remington, Winchester, Benelli do if everyone starts using box-fed autoloader Saigas? Most likely it will force them to do some R&D and develop thier own magazine fed shotguns to retain a piece of the market. Competition is good for business as it forces the companies to advance or loose money.

The problem is there's very little market in the US for "action" shotguns, and mag-feeders even less. For a major mfg to tool up and build one looking at a market that's quite possibly less than 1000 units, total is a heck of a risk.

How many active 3-gunners are there?

Any reliable shotgun that is suitable for 3 Gun shooting would also be suitable for Law Enforcement, Military, and Defensive applications with only minor adjustments if any.

Most of the Remington Competition masters that sold weren't bought by 3 gunners, they were bought by people to use as home defense shotguns.

[shred]

Any reliable shotgun that is suitable for 3 Gun shooting would also be suitable for Law Enforcement, Military, and Defensive applications with only minor adjustments if any.

Most of the Remington Competition masters that sold weren't bought by 3 gunners, they were bought by people to use as home defense shotguns.

And it sold so well they ... discontinued it?

There's a "1100 Tactical" model now, but generally when management goes around renaming and repainting stuff, it's not a good sign for the incumbent.

But.. I have no visibility into that market, and I'm sure others here do.

[SinistralRifleman]

And it sold so well they ... discontinued it?

There's a "1100 Tactical" model now, but generally when management goes around renaming and repainting stuff, it's not a good sign for the incumbent.

But.. I have no visibility into that market, and I'm sure others here do.

I've heard various reasons why they did this, nothing concrete though....one thing someone quoted remington staff as having said was since the gun wasn't reaching it's target market, they felt change was needed. Remington has several different divisions, internal politics might have been a factor if one division percieved another as "cutting it's grass".

I'm still waiting to get my Saiga back after it has received it's blessing from the BATFE....then the quest for magazines will begin.

Edited March 22, 2006 by SinistralRifleman

[Bronco]

Allowing the Saiga in Tactical division will only help the sport and development of the shotgun overall. Think about it, what will Remington, Winchester, Benelli do if everyone starts using box-fed autoloader Saigas? Most likely it will force them to do some R&D and develop thier own magazine fed shotguns to retain a piece of the market. Competition is good for business as it forces the companies to advance or loose money.

The problem is there's very little market in the US for "action" shotguns, and mag-feeders even less. For a major mfg to tool up and build one looking at a market that's quite possibly less than 1000 units, total is a heck of a risk.

How many active 3-gunners are there?

A lot more than one might think. USPSA did a survey of its members and almost half of respondents ( 47% ) compete in 3 gun/multi gun matches. It is one of the fastest growing shooting disciplines in U.S. I've seen a huge increase in matches and attendance in the last 7 years. And all of these competitors are looking for an advantage, its a fertile market for those willing to adapt or develop specialized equipment.

[benny hill]

The only drawback to the mag shotguns is if the stage designers put a lot of bird-slug-bird-slug stages as you cannot just add a slug or birdshot at your whem.

[cottyw]

The only drawback to the mag shotguns is if the stage designers put a lot of bird-slug-bird-slug stages as you cannot just add a slug or birdshot at your whem.

+1

Will

[Religious Shooter]

Yah but how many of those stages do you see?

In any case how fast can you change mags on these guns? If you can cinch the mags I'd say 1.5-2 seconds and even coming out the belt you can get to that 1.5-2 second mag change. Shooting out the shell in the chamber adds say another .15 secs. So its like 1.65-2.15 seconds to do a select slug/shell drill on a detachable mag shotgun.

With a tuber, using weakhand loading, loading a single slug/shell is around 1-1.5 sec (basically the speed of a pistol reload). Shoot out the chambered shell and the whole process is like 1.15-1.65 seconds.

If you have to shuck out the shell in the chamber I think the added time is about the same for either a tube or a detachable mag shotgun --- there's no difference.

So as far as I can see the detachable mag shotgun's disadvantage at most is around .5-1 second on a select slug/shot scenario.

Comparing that to the advantage you get with mag reloading I would take that disadvantage for the gained advantage.

Loading 9 on a tuber typically takes 7-9 seconds (if you don't fumble... and I'd argue that there is a higher fumble factor due to the increased # of times you have execute a movement). Loading 9 on a mag gun is around 1.5-2 seconds. It looks like you will see 5.5-7 second gain when loading 9.

Making a detachable mag shotgun legal in Tactical absolutely positively makes the tube shotgun obsolete for Tactical/Limited. No question.

With that one change you are asking the membership who shoot Tactical/Limited (and who want to have a chance at winning) to shell out another $600-1000 (additional for mods).

No thanks. Shoot open if you want to use the Saiga.

[Loves2Shoot]

If you can change one of those mags in 2 seconds (shot to shot) you are friggin' awesome.

[Religious Shooter]

I figure it's like an AK mag. Which is like an M1A mag. Which is like a Mini-14 mag.

Practice with it enough. Tune it. I don't see a problem reaching a 2 second mag change.

How fast were your mag changes with the Saiga? Can you honestly say you practiced reloading a Saiga as much as your pistol? And if you practiced reloading the Saiga as much as your pistol... is the 2 second mark really that far off?

How will fixed magazine shotguns be kept competitive with replaceable magazine guns?

There will be a new (sub?) division added. It will be referred to as "Tuber" ;-)

Actually, it might just wind up being where HM division needs to go to get the customer base it needs while the rest of us re-gear, again :-/

What's with this "us."

Are you moving out of California? Or do you already have a Saiga or a DM shotgun?

See 12276.1.7

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12275.htm

[Loves2Shoot]

I spent 5 days busting my ass with one hardcore. 2 seconds, shot to shot would be amazing. I've had a AK and it was at least 2-3 times harder to change than the AK IMO.

I'm sure that one I had wasn't as easy to change as some of the more tricked out ones. I really wanted it to work, but I think it will take some serious design improvement to make it as viable as it should be.

[George]

What's with this "us."

Gotta do whatever it takes to stay in the game. Don't know what that is yet, but when I do, I will find a way to do it ;-)

[SinistralRifleman]

The one I had before sending it in for the 2 short barrel, appeared to have much easier magazine changes than earlier Saigas I played with.

It didn't seem much more difficult than changing a regular AK mag.

[benny hill]

Have played w/ mark otto's & reloads that you "hit" are in the 2.5 sec range shot to shot. Do this once or twice a stage & oh well, you cannot give up that kind of time to myself or kurt or etc.