Saiga-12

[SinistralRifleman]

I was talking to a distributor of the Saiga-12s being imported again by Russian American Armory today, and he told me that the first shipment that arrived was 10,000 guns. Another 10,000 are on the boat over right, now, and another shipment of 10,000 will be here by summer.

Several companies are tooling up to produce 10 round magazines. Many other accessories are becoming available. When they were previously available, magazines for shotguns with a capacity greater than 5 rounds were prohibited under the assault weapons ban...I think this dramatically limited their popularity in the past.

How is the widespread availability of these guns with high capacity mags going to change 3 gun?

If a gun in such high production numbers uses a detachable magazine, is it reasonable to allow them in Tactical Iron/Tactical Scope...or should they be relegated to Open class?

Edited February 24, 2006 by SinistralRifleman

[Middle Man]

FYI - The first batch of 12ga shotguns sold off our shelves in less than a day. While the total was 10,000 guns in the first import shipment, the majority were centerfire rifles in 7.62x39, .308 Win, and .223. It and future shipments were not 100% 12ga. shotguns. The Saiga line also includes a very popular .410 shotgun as well as a 20ga. The centerfire rifles are very, very popular in states with "assault rifle" bans that cannot have inexpensive surplus AK's.

However, last week all the 12's were recalled to RAA the importer in IL due to the barrels being a fraction of an inch to short. If a retail store or individual keeps any of these guns they will have their local ATF agent knocking on their door as that fraction of an inch makes the gun illegal to import. The importer has a fix, but it's too bad the inspectors didn't discover the violation sooner.

Having said all that, yes, someone will capitalize on the magazine fed capabilities and the new availability of the Saiga shotguns for 3gun competition. However, there are still some big pot holes in the road ahead and they will not be as widespread as you may believe.

[SinistralRifleman]

We found out about the short barrel issue, making them all unregistered short barrelled shotguns in violation of the National Firearms Act, the day after we had ordered some for ourselves. We sent them back and they arrived at RAA today. I hope the turn around time is fast.

The mag changes on the one I had seemed a lot easier than earlier guns imported by EAA. Changing the mag is as easy as changing an AK mag...the earlier guns I handled you really had to fight against the mag spring tension to get them in place.

Edited February 24, 2006 by SinistralRifleman

[Singlestack]

I'm pretty sure they already ruled the Saiga to be Open division only. NROI considers the mags to be "speed" loaders.

Edited February 24, 2006 by Singlestack

[Middle Man]

They left too fast to actually unbox one to fondle.

And all the dealers I sold them too wanted to know about higher capacity mags.

Edited February 24, 2006 by Middle Man

[mike.45]

In IPSC they are well and truely Open class only and that is never going to change.

As for non IPSC 3 gun - well I guess that is up to the MD's to decide but IMHO they should stay in Open although I could see the argument for them to be included in Tactical.

Edited February 25, 2006 by mike.45

[Neil Beverley]

I'm pretty sure they already ruled the Saiga to be Open division only. NROI considers the mags to be "speed" loaders.

The guns are certainly classed as Open Division in both IPSC and USPSA SG divisional rules.

See Point 8 in the division tables. Detachable magazines are only permitted in Open Division.

[kurtm]

I see I must get out the big paddle and stirr the mix!!

I can load a standard shotgun just about as fast as speed loaders so should I be placed in open because of manual dextarity?? Why are these a "speed loader" when all they do is hold ammo...just like a tube, or a Choate shell holder on the belt....which is just a TYPE of magazine. I think that as long as the "magazine" only hold 9 rounds it SHOULD be allowed in Standard!! Why are we cutting off shotgun development in standard. Lets see we magazine feed STANDARD pistols....We magazine feed STANDARD rifles....but NO WAY can we magazine feed Standard shotguns. Where did that particular lunacy come from??

I know I'm going to hear that it will spark an " arms race"... but when a Saiaga shotgun RETAILS for $400 and the mags are $50 a piece, I just don't see the logic!! when a STOCK Benelli or Browning... etc. is over $800. That is a Siaga and 4 magazines for the price of gun that needs work right out of the box! Bring on the "BOTTOM FEEDERS" KURTM

[George]

Dang right Kurt! Who says shotguns have to tube feed in any division except Open?

Now that I have helped push the paddle around some too, I will toss out my take on the reason the rule exists. It is not there to level the playing field in Standard/Limited/Tactical, it is there to keep the huuuuggggee inventory of tube feeders in safes all over the world from getting tossed on the scrap heap overnight (by everyone except Kurt that is).

[SinistralRifleman]

I see I must get out the big paddle and stirr the mix!!

I can load a standard shotgun just about as fast as speed loaders so should I be placed in open because of manual dextarity?? Why are these a "speed loader" when all they do is hold ammo...just like a tube, or a Choate shell holder on the belt....which is just a TYPE of magazine. I think that as long as the "magazine" only hold 9 rounds it SHOULD be allowed in Standard!! Why are we cutting off shotgun development in standard. Lets see we magazine feed STANDARD pistols....We magazine feed STANDARD rifles....but NO WAY can we magazine feed Standard shotguns. Where did that particular lunacy come from??

I know I'm going to hear that it will spark an " arms race"... but when a Saiaga shotgun RETAILS for $400 and the mags are $50 a piece, I just don't see the logic!! when a STOCK Benelli or Browning... etc. is over $800. That is a Siaga and 4 magazines for the price of gun that needs work right out of the box! Bring on the "BOTTOM FEEDERS" KURTM

Kurt I'm with you on this. It seems before recently magazine fed shotguns were not available in large numbers, and thus I think they could reasonably put shooters in a different class. If Saigas do become increasingly readily available, relegating them to open class only, seems like artificially holding back advancing technology.

Tactical Iron/Limited, I think could reasonably be kept as a tube fed division. Tactical Scope/Tactical I think it would be entirely logical to allow magazine fed shotguns.

It will at least make shooting open more worth my while at matches that don't have Trooper Class. I don't see a huge advantage with Open pistols at most 3 gun match, if you're not running tek-loaders in open you are pretty well screwed. The deciding factor for me will be if the guns hold up to pro-longed use, and how well they run...I'm not a big fan of giving up reliability for increased performance when the gun actually works.

[MyBoyElroy]

So if an external magazine is all this is why shouldn't you be required to reload the magazine on the clock just like reloading an attached magazine?

[diehli]

So if an external magazine is all this is why shouldn't you be required to reload the magazine on the clock just like reloading an attached magazine?

Would you walk around with an empty pistol magazine? Also, see Shotgun rule 8.1.1.3.

Edited February 27, 2006 by 300lbGorilla

[MyBoyElroy]

So if an external magazine is all this is why shouldn't you be required to reload the magazine on the clock just like reloading an attached magazine?

Would you walk around with an empty pistol magazine? Also, see Shotgun rule 8.1.1.3.

Not the same issue. ALL pistols reload with replaceable magazines. This is a shotgun issue. The point in question is reloading the magazine not replacing the magazine. Reloading the magazine on the clock is the point whether or not the magazine is replaceable.

[George]

The problem here is that IPSC shotgun competition started when there were ONLY fixed mag tube feeders available unlike in rifle and pistol where detachable box mags were present from the inception of this-here sport.

Now we are down the path of too much existing inventory and there are folks in power who have taken it unto themselves to protect this investment for the overall shooting cadre and they are making the rules in that interest.

I do not fault the validity of this decision process, I just point out that the nature of progress will not allow this type of vacuum to exist forever, or even for very long ;-)

[Loves2Shoot]

ALL pistols reload with replaceable magazines.

um, What about revolvers?

Are shotguns with mags the next big thing? I'm interested, why should tubular magazine fed shotguns be the "approved' shotgun of choice. Maybe it time for new shotgun designs that are magazine fed.

It might make shotguning less of a reloading contest, and more a shooting contest.

[MyBoyElroy]

ALL pistols reload with replaceable magazines.

um, What about revolvers?

Notice the word "pistol". I used it intentionally. I did not use "handgun" which would make your question pertinent.

Are shotguns with mags the next big thing? I'm interested, why should tubular magazine fed shotguns be the "approved' shotgun of choice. Maybe it time for new shotgun designs that are magazine fed.

It might make shotguning less of a reloading contest, and more a shooting contest.

Now you're talking. This is the real issue. Extending your logic, the question will become, "How will fixed magazine shotguns be kept competitive with replaceable magazine guns?" The reloading difference is functionally quite similar to the difference between revolver and pistol.

I don't have enough experience to comment intelligently on how the game will assimilate replaceable magazine shotguns.

[George]

How will fixed magazine shotguns be kept competitive with replaceable magazine guns?

There will be a new (sub?) division added. It will be referred to as "Tuber" ;-)

Actually, it might just wind up being where HM division needs to go to get the customer base it needs while the rest of us re-gear, again :-/

[MyBoyElroy]

Actually, it might just wind up being where HM division needs to go to get the customer base it needs while the rest of us re-gear, again :-/

Aw thanks, George. Re-gear? And I just bought a new "pre-ban" Benelli...

I held one of the Saiga-12's at a Dallas Market Hall gunshow in January. Dealer had five on his table for sale. Holding it and seeing the price it occurred to me then changes were in store.

[Bronco]

I've played with a Saiga for several years and shot a couple of local matches with it. On the right cof it is very fast and shoots slugs better than any shotgun I've tried. All it will take to screw with the bottom feeders is a select slug cof that has shot and slug targets interspersed with each other. Creative mag loading or mag changing would diminish much of the advantage of the system. Other issues such as the bolt not locking back would have to be addressed also. Bring em on it will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

[Religious Shooter]

If we don't have the reloading aspect of the shotgun... is it really that much different from a rifle?

In terms of targets the only substantially different target between the two long guns are flying clays. And how many of those do you see at a match? Compare the number of flying clay targets to all the static clays, static steel and paper targets that you will likely see in a shotgun course. Flying clays are miniscule in number.

Then take away the reloading aspect and the shotgun isn't that much different from a rifle.

I don't really see a point to having the shotgun without the reloading side of it.

I'd rather get rid of the shotgun all together than let removeable magazine shotguns into Tactical/Limited. Leave it in Open.

[SinistralRifleman]

To quote Matt Burkett from a discussion I had with him;

"Shotguns are the only gun we still load like it's the 1800s"

I agree with his sentiment on that...

[Loves2Shoot]

If we don't have the reloading aspect of the shotgun... is it really that much different from a rifle?

In terms of targets the only substantially different target between the two long guns are flying clays. And how many of those do you see at a match? Compare the number of flying clay targets to all the static clays, static steel and paper targets that you will likely see in a shotgun course. Flying clays are miniscule in number.

Then take away the reloading aspect and the shotgun isn't that much different from a rifle.

I don't really see a point to having the shotgun without the reloading side of it.

I'd rather get rid of the shotgun all together than let removeable magazine shotguns into Tactical/Limited. Leave it in Open.

..and make the rifles have tube mags, and no speed loader for the revolvers, oh wait, that would be cowboy action... many of their shotguns are tube fed too...

[mcb]

..and make the rifles have tube mags, and no speed loader for the revolvers, oh wait, that would be cowboy action... many of their shotguns are tube fed too...

Yah but they are only allowed two shell in their tube fed shotguns. That always seemed goofy. I understand that it was to be competitive with the doubles but still.

[Larry White]

..and make the rifles have tube mags, and no speed loader for the revolvers, oh wait, that would be cowboy action... many of their shotguns are tube fed too...

Yah but they are only allowed two shell in their tube fed shotguns. That always seemed goofy. I understand that it was to be competitive with the doubles but still.

I wonder if the first lawman to buy a win. 97 thought if he just put two rds in it he would be competitve with a outlaw with a double.-----Larry

[surfmaster]

It appears the Saiga 10-round metal magazines are currently being tested:

http://www.saigasolutions.com/12.html

If you look at the website's forum, you'll see that they are coming soon at a to-be-determined price. It's just a matter of time at this point.