Turmoil In The Shooting Sports

[Bigbadaboom]

I'm posting this here because I don't want a venue war starting. This is my opinion and I'm not stating this for a debate to ensue.

I've been in the shooting sports for a long time in one fashion or another for about 20 years (USPSA/IPSC for 6). As it stands now I have never heard so much negativity as I have over the past three months about IDPA. I've never shot an IDPA match only because I don't agree with some of their safety issues not because of any political debate over Tactical vs. Practical or anything like that.

I've noticed a great influx of IDPA shooters moving over into USPSA/IPSC and I think this is great. I think that everyone should shoot whatever they wish and enjoy it.

My concern is that I don't know where the negativity is originating from i.e. leadership or membership. It's disheartening to see so much controversy involved in something I care so much about. My real worries lie in the probability that it is member provoked and those members are bleeding over into USPSA/IPSC and that soon those who are dealing the devastation over there will soon start dealing it over here and we'll (USPSA Members) be in the same boat.

If someone out there knows more than I about what's going on in IDPA and it's not as bad as has been communicated to me then please fill me in. It's up to "US" to keep our sport alive and flourishing.

Thanks for listening.

Admin: If this is out of line or goes outside the bounderies of the forum rules then it is purely without intent and I apologise (I did re-read the rules prior to posting this). If you find it inapropriate please deleat. If anyone reposts with the intent of debating it or argueing please close or deleat it as you see fit (I know you don't need me to tell you. I only want everyone here to know here I'm coming from).

Edited February 23, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[dirtypool40]

Daniel, although I know it's not your intent, this may quickly turn in to a "pot stirring thread", and get closed.

I started n IDPA for two years before I ever ventured out to USPSA. I love the concept. I set up stages, ran matches, clubs and worked State matches, as designer, shooter, even cook. I still shoot it and will offer to help the next time there's a big one 'round here.

Hell, I still shoot an IDPA legal gun in USPSA.

I hate the conflict, and think it's counter productive and destructive not only to shooting sports in general, but to local clubs as well.

That being said; One of the rule books has some very adversarial things on page one, as doctrine everyone is taught. And one set of RO's is briefed on how to "control" good shooters. I think we are doomed to conflict until an attitude change comes down from on high and is accepted by the local level folks on both sides.

My advice would be to head out to CFRPC and shoot a match. Next Sunday they have one after Titusville on Saturday.

Brian runs it. He's a good guy and shoots both IDPA and USPSA. There will be people you know and some you don't.

Have fun, don't get in a discussion about tactics or equipment, just shoot and observe.

Then we'll talk.

Edited February 24, 2006 by dirtypool40

[Ted Murphy]

FWIW, most of the turmoil you speak of is on the internet and not visible in real life.

Around my way the IDPA or USPSA fellows would bend over backwards to help each other. Might break each others balls a bit, but that's to be expected among friends.

The closest IDPA club to me would never have gotten off the ground if it wasn't for the club's USPSA match director.

Ted

[XRe]

I may very well be wrong, but I read Daniel's post to say that he thought there was infighting going on within IDPA?? Not that IDPA and USPSA don't get along... which has been hashed over 8 trillion times on this forum...

[dirtypool40]

The IDPA club in our area (CFRPC) was started by USPSA shooters who still shoot both.

It has lead to crossover back and forth although we dont' get as many IDPA'ers shooting the USPSA state match as we do USPSA'ers going to CFRPC when they host the big IDPA shin dig.

I hope we see more now that there's Skinny gun and Prod in USPSA. Some of the best shooters in Florida, like Limited champs Gambrell and Clifton, have shot Single Stack or Production in big matches lately.

I think that's a shame and even if you are unclassified, I think there ought to be a way for folks to shoot, even just for exhibition or as "un" or something. At the IDPA match they usually put up the classifier the day before (when SO's shoot the match stages) to let new folks sign up, get classified and get into the big dance.

USPSA doesn't have anything like that, but I think they will allow new shooters to compete as "un".

The door ought to be open, especially when the big production stages are there to lure new customers.

[AlamoShooter]

I got DQ by an IDPA Ro at a local Steel match. I shot it like a steel match with a steel open gun. I hated it as the I had missed my first shot on the 35 yard target, but ...I missed fast so he DQ me and called it an AD ... I only missed by 3"to 4" But I did not intend to miss so the DQ.

I just now understand why. He wanted to Control me.

I Hate that that was 6 years ago and I still get that taste in my mouth when I think about it.

Edited February 24, 2006 by AlamoShooter

[shred]

I may very well be wrong, but I read Daniel's post to say that he thought there was infighting going on within IDPA?? Not that IDPA and USPSA don't get along... which has been hashed over 8 trillion times on this forum...

Hah, anybody can go look at the Vanek trigger thread or something and figure out infighting, politics and plain ol grumpy people aren't hard to come by in either sport. What I do like is the local IDPA matches are well run and as Ted says, maybe the IDPA and IPSC specialists rib each other a bit, but it's all good fun.

[blackdragon]

Check out my post on the "Politics" Thread!!! This is where this post is headed.

Ivan

[XRe]

Infighting, politics and plain ol grumpy people aren't hard to come by in either sport.

I'm really getting tired of people attributing some sentiment to me that I didn't write... happening to me a bunch the past two days (no hard feelings in your direction, Roy...).

No where did I say that USPSA doesn't have it's share of issues, or that there wasn't any infighting within USPSA. I was simply observing that I thought Daniel's post meant something different that Eric took it to mean.

[shred]

sorry.. I didn't say I was attributing anything to you.. Just came out that way.. I was agreeing with Ted that a lot of the "turmoil" seem to be limited to arms length from the nearest keyboard.

[XRe]

sorry.. I didn't say I was attributing anything to you.. Just came out that way..

No worries Just venting and frustrated

[Bigbadaboom]

My concern is that those People that I hear complaining about the rules and the politics of IDPA and in-fighting among their sport not only on line but also out in the field will bleed over into USPSA and bring that turmoil with them.

I'll state it again. This is not a thread for discussing the politics or rules debates of any shooting sport and the second I feel that someone is trying to turn it into such I will have it closed. This is a thread to express concerns about negative attitudes causing negative effects to the arena I love and how we can all (IDPA, Steel Challenge, USPSA/IPSC, and other shooters) help to keep this from happening.

The only way that I see this turning into a "Stirring the pot" thread is if someone with a negative attitude starts posting in an argumentative manner in which case I'll close it.

Let's have an adult discussion in a positive manner about how to keep the negative waves from destroying our sports.

I'm not naive. I know that any area where you have so many different personalities and character types is going to have some dificulties with conflict but I choose to try and work in a positive way to keep it at a minimum.

Then again, maybe I'm dreaming. We'll see.

[dajarrel]

I've read it here and on other forums. If you remove the internet, 90% (or more in my opinion) of the bickering and infighting are gone.

I don't ever recall having seen anything like this at any IDPA or IPSC match I've ever attended. There are too many matches shot all over this country on a weekly basis with absolutely no bitchin'.

Let's move on

JMHO

dj

[PJONES5]

I've read it here and on other forums. If you remove the internet, 90% (or more in my opinion) of the bickering and infighting are gone.

I don't ever recall having seen anything like this at any IDPA or IPSC match I've ever attended. There are too many matches shot all over this country on a weekly basis with absolutely no bitchin'.

Let's move on

JMHO

dj

+1000

pat

[JFD]

I agree that 99% of the negativity is limited to the internet.

Even the USPSA versus IDPA debate is quiet once the computer is turned off, and I think this was true during the worst of times as well.

[jkelly]

I also question the need for personal attacks as they pull us all into the gutter to often!

Respectfully,

jkelly

[Clay1]

On a positive note, look at the front cover of the latest Front Sight publication. Looks like a hell of a olive branch to me. Looks like someone trying to take a positive step towards different shooting sports getting along.

On the hate thread - I also hate much of the negative feelings that are floating around and that anytime something comes up someone wants to change 15 different rules to their advantage. I know it's not the rules or even which game I play, it has to do with my skill level as a shooter - that's what I need to work on.

Rick

[smokshwn]

I will have to disagree on the blame being placed on the internet. At the IDPA type club I shoot at there are approx. 30 regulars. Of those only 3 or four ever spend time on the internet yet there is still plenty of comments made concerning USPSA. The same holds true for the uspsa clubs in that there may be a few more folks on the web but there are still plenty who never touch a mouse who have plenty of opinions about IDPA.

It seems to me a solution to this problem lies in admitting what happened many years ago.

Anyway just .02, Craig

[Genghis]

I've been shooting USPSA, IDPA, and steel for 1 year now. I have yet to hear a negative comment locally about the other sports, or about me because I shoot in the other sports.

Someone who crosses over to another sport then gets screwed because "he's one of those other guys" would have a legit reason to b*tch. But having problems because of the different rules is on you, rather than on the other sport.

As a flight instructor once told me, you either meet the standard for the rating or you don't. If you bust a checkride, it's not the examiner's fault. But locally, everyone has bent over backwards to answer my questions to help me absorb the rule differences. And they've been more than understanding on the occasions when I've committed minor procedurals because of the rule differences.

It's kind of surprising that members of different sports would criticize each other. After all, you almost never hear a football player saying basketball players are wimps, or a kickboxer criticizing shooters saying with gun control it's "unrealistic" to think you could defend yourself with a gun. Pool players switch from eight ball to nine ball with only a little b*tching about the slop that's allowed in the latter.

It almost seems like some of the members of the Tacti-Cool shooting sports go out of their way to razz each other. IDPA and USPSA both have established their niches by now. So shoot one or the other, or set aside some serious time for reloading and shoot both.

[Bigbadaboom]

Cross-sport degradation is not what this thread is referring to.

[DougCarden]

I that we all know certain people that do this bashing, on both sides of the fence. Most of the time I think it is more of a "Personality thang" than a game thing. I really dont care what you shoot, and think more people shooting more games is a good thing.

Then there are the insecure people that want to fit in and have the "need" to convince you or make you understand why their game is better . Due to these people's perception of why you dont like their game many have to dig their heels in and harp at you every chance you get. Being a full time cop and trainer I have a hard time having someone that has no real world experience tell me how I didnt shoot something "tactically correct" and that I should have done it their way. I am always up for constructive criticism, as that is how we learn and improve, but you have to have a base to do that. That was my first and last experience at IDPA in my area. I dont know what it is like in other areas. I dont have any problem with the game, and if it makes people happy to shoot the game, go for it. I am not having any of it, but wont bad mouth it either.

In my area it is the vocal minority that cant shoot and feel wronged since they cant measure up to the competition that derive the most satisfaction in stirring the pot and keeping the controversy alive. DougC

[Ron Ankeny]

"Personality thang"

Yeppers, it's a people thing found in all endeavors from pre-school playgrounds all the way through Congress.

[tightloop]

The higher you go, if you really look, the more you will find it..

[Rob Boudrie]

This bickering sounds like what you hear from martial artists (generally at the less than expert skill level). It generally consists of "my art is so superior that a bnlacnk belt in your style is not match for a green belt in my style." Of course, if the person saying this is a green belt they will invariable decline the offer for a few rounds of full contact sparing with the black belt in the "lesser style."

[Cameron]

They are two different games, and folks just need to play the game they like to play. Sure there can be disagreements about the way the game is played, but flat out bashing should be avoided.

We started a club in Michigan that is shooting both sports, and we are doing it successfully. Each disipline is learning about the other, and both are rapidly loosing the negative tongue toward on another.

Buuutttt, on the other side of the coin, when I see IDPA print up brochures that read "The Real Practical Shooting", I think some of the flack is brought upon themselves.

The answer is simple.....Be nice!