Accuracy Or Speed

[rwmagnus]

What is easier to teach in your opinion accuracy or speed in IPSC shooting? Why? Answer taking into consideration that points are important.

[Jake Di Vita]

Nothing is easy to teach.

The hardest thing is to teach the PRINCIPLE behind accuracy or speed. The fundamentals by comparison are easy.

From that standpoint, I would say teaching the principle of accuracy is harder than speed.

[j1b]

Which is easier? I would think speed. First, its the component that makes the game exciting so basically anyone who's jumping in is drawn to it. In essence, this sport is about speed. Sure, the thing that costs us all the most is accuracy, but the thing the majority of folks focus on is speed. So it's the easiest.

The most important thing though, to me, is accuracy. Gotta have it before one can move forward. Anyone can start shooting faster - it is much more difficult to switch from speed to accuracy.

When I had students in this game I used to tell them "I don't care what it takes, shoot this course with all 'A's on every target." You'd be astounded at how long it took for folks to be able to do that. Once done though, and things got on their way, once we started on speed stuff and things got a little too fast it was great to say "ok - back off - get to where you can shoot all 'A's and the shooters had not only a point of reference for that but also knowledge that they in fact could do it.

Not sure if I answered the question though

J

[AlamoShooter]

I can teach Accuracy ...but I do not know how to teach speed.

[shred]

Somebody once told me that the Army team preferred fast shooters over accurate ones, their reasoning being it was easier to teach accuracy to fast shooters than speed to accurate ones.

I'm not sure of that because it seems like the Army team can get the best young shooters that are already both accurate and fast, but the basic concept makes a little sense.

[Loves2Shoot]

What Jake said, but I think the harder part is being acurate at speed, and removing hesitations so that there is speed.

There really isn't being fast without being acurate, becuase Mikes don't score...

[spook]

Both are easy to teach, but the combination... that's a whole nother story

[Liota]

L2S,

Quite the contrary, I earned -15 points for each mike I shot.

You can teach neither accuracy nor speed. You can teach the skills to get accuracy and speed. Accuracy and speed are the evidence of doing it correctly.

Liota

[rwmagnus]

Somebody once told me that the Army team preferred fast shooters over accurate ones, their reasoning being it was easier to teach accuracy to fast shooters than speed to accurate ones.

I'm not sure of that because it seems like the Army team can get the best young shooters that are already both accurate and fast, but the basic concept makes a little sense.

Hence the reason I asked after reading the same artice. Good thing I was a Grunt vs a Soldier, they wanted accuracy.

Most everyone has told me accuracy is what counts and speed will come. I shoot most matches at about 90-95% of available points but the speed issue is what kills me. I get beat on speed not points! Many havae said a fast "C" is fine, deal with it and move on. Old habits die hard sometimes being an ex-Bullseye shooter holds me back from breaking the shot faster. I' feel like I'm getting there, but I'd rather be the hare than the tortoise right now in this race, LOL!

Yea yea yea I know the shooot as fast as you can see, see what you need to see statements are comming etc etc. Like I said the journey has many twists and I'm getting there. Guess I'm evaluating my road traveled to others.

What Jake said, but I think the harder part is being acurate at speed, and removing hesitations so that there is speed.

There really isn't being fast without being acurate, becuase Mikes don't score...

"....removing hesitations so that there is speed."

ahhh yes Grasshopper you've hit the nail on the head. This is a big part of why I can be measured with a sundial . An "A" is an "A" regardless if it's centered or on the edge but sometimes the trigger finger doesn't cooperate!

[ong45]

In baseball, they are usually enamoured with "big" arms. But the pitchers that last are the ones who learn control.

I think fast shooters have more potential , but greatness won't come until the hits get better.

For me it's been harder to shoot faster with hits

James

Edited February 10, 2006 by ong45

[Crusher]

I don't think "speed" can be taught, only the concept of speed can be taught. Accuracy on the other hand is a skill that can be taught (at least the fundamentals of accuracy). Speed is a byproduct of executing the fundamentals of accuracy, economy of motion and seeing.

[Genghis]

I've always been told that speed is smoothness, the elimination of unnecessary movement. I think that kind of speed can unquestionably be taught. Speed in terms of foot speed can't be taught, but confidence allows us to turn to that speed when it counts.

[Sean Gaines]

This is kind of a trick question but if you want one or the other.I think speed would be harder because it deals with more aspects than just running fast. It has to do with your draw, splits, transitions, footwork, reloads, no wated movement, correct stage planning,having the gun up ready to shoot when you get into a position or box etc, etc. All which make up your total time on a stage. And all of these things we are constantly trying to improve on all the time.

But you can loose time if you are not accurate with your shots, ie make up shots.

Wheras the fundamentals of accuracy is simple, its just lining the sights up on the target and squezing the shot off, while keeping the gun still. And we all pretty much know that. But the strange thing about it is that if we go to the range I would bet that 95%+/- of IPSC can hit an A zone pretty consistantly at 10-15yards. Now put that same person in competitive situation, where time is an added variable in determining your score and that percentage starts to drop.

So maybe we need to throw in another variable into the mix, and that would be the "head game". But I will leave that for another conversation.

pK

Edited February 10, 2006 by PAPER KILLER

[Ron Ankeny]

I think the elements of accuracy, and the techniques required to shoot accurately are the easiest to teach, but they are often times overlooked in the quest for speed. Teaching someone to shoot accurately and with speed (from Box A) is pretty simple too if the right approach is used. Face it, the easiest courses of fire in any given IPSC match are the classifiers and standards. I would even go so far as to say teaching someone what it takes to shoot M and GM scores on stand and deliver classifiers is a simple thing, but that doesn't make mastering the concepts easy.

My problem isn't about shooting an array fast, it's about shooting a field course smart and making the most out of the time spent off of the trigger. I would dare say that holds true for the vast majority of IPSC shooters.

[Bob Hostetter]

Accuracy is much easier to teach then speed. Raw speed is mostly a function of fast twitch muscle fibers which is genetic, not learned. It is certainly possible to improve someones speed thru awareness, smoothness, and economy of motion but the shooter still needs the genetic ability to go fast.

Accuracy is more of a mechncal skill, the ability to properly align the sights and control the trigger, AND the discipline to fucntion within ones skill limitations on any given target. These concepts are defineable and as such easily teachable.

[Catfish]

Both accuracy and speed are important parts of the game. I don't think either one is any more important because without the other it's a mute point. Shoot slow with all A's and you lose. Shoot fast with a lot of C's, D's and Mikes and you lose.

You've got to be able to do both to suceed, and I'll say that anyone can learn to do either. It might take "you" longer to learn one over the other, but you can learn to do both. Lanny Bassham teaches us that everyone can learn. Some of us just take longer.

You have said that you're plenty accurate, but your speed needs some work. Matt Burkett has told me that one of his "mindsets" on local matches is to go to one match and have the goal of being dead on accurate. The next match it's all about speed, rinse, repeat. At some point you'd like to think they'll merge together. Perhaps you can give that a try?

For me, the harder skill to master than either speed or accuracy was in how to change pace in the course of fire. As TGO says, you have fast targets and you have slow targets; I have found that speeding up or slowing down my cadence in the midst of the stage has been a good challenge and something I still work on.

You can accomplish anything you set your mind to!

[Waltermitty]

Most everyone has told me accuracy is what counts and speed will come. I shoot most matches at about 90-95% of available points but the speed issue is what kills me. I get beat on speed not points! Many havae said a fast "C" is fine, deal with it and move on. Old habits die hard sometimes being an ex-Bullseye shooter holds me back from breaking the shot faster. I' feel like I'm getting there, but I'd rather be the hare than the tortoise right now in this race, LOL!

"....removing hesitations so that there is speed."

ahhh yes Grasshopper you've hit the nail on the head. This is a big part of why I can be measured with a sundial . An "A" is an "A" regardless if it's centered or on the edge but sometimes the trigger finger doesn't cooperate!

I feel your pain (biting lip)

I entered the biggest slump of my career about this time last year through about the middle of the second morning of Nationals trying to "call my shots". When I finally said "to hell with it, I'm gonna have some runnin', gunnin', funnin'", I finally snapped out of it and shot my ( class.

Full-tilt, High-speed accuracy isn't the same animal as bullseye accuracy. On my best runs I quite frankly don't remember seeing much of a sight picture, I don't recall the details of any reloads and I never have a decent perception of how much time I took.

I still have a ways to go to make "A" class, but the stages that are my best are the stages I have a clear understanding of and have a clear plan to execute down to the sight picture I plan to have when I arrive at a given shooting array.

So my answer is that it is harder to teach/learn the speed aspect that gets you from sight picture to sight picture in the most efficient manner. Any lifelong "Dedicated" shooter can stand flat footed lining up the sights on a target while the grass grows up between his toes, but the front sight-rear sight-target alignment moment should only be a fraction of time on the path the gun takes that starts at the buzzer from the holster to the last target.

So for those stages I have really "Smoked" I don't think I was really "aiming" the gun in a conventional sense, I was just breaking the shots at the right time on the predetermined time line as the gun moved through the course of fire.

I'm probably not making any sense

[shooterbenedetto]

Practice Group size and keep them SMALL...then sacrifice a little accuracy for speed!!!!!!!!!

[Lee Bell]

What is easier to teach in your opinion accuracy or speed in IPSC shooting? Why? Answer taking into consideration that points are important.

I learned accuracy before I learned speed. I learned accuracy before I even learned there was such a thing as competitive action shooting. OK, make that, I learned accuracy, and I'm trying to learn speed. By far, the majority of those that beat me, do so because they shoot faster. At the local level, few shoot better.

As to those that say that accuracy is more important to success, I'd point to the number of times I had higher point scores and lost because of time. More than once, being more than 10 points better was overcome by being about 2 seconds slower.

Neither accuracy nor speed is easy. It's fine to say that all you have to do to be accurate is to line up the sights and squeeze the trigger. If that were true, we'd all be distinguished bullseye shooters. Obviously, we're not. Most don't even want to be. While it's harder than it sounds to do them right, it is true that there's only a limited number of elements required for accuracy, particularly when we're talking about a target as large as an A zone. In my opinion, it's easier to teach a shooter to be accurate enough than it is to teach one to be fast enough.

There's a multitude of things that contribute to speed. The draw is obvious, but not even close to the most important factor for newer shooters. Movement through the stage is also pretty obvious, but also not the most important factor for newer shooters. In my personal opinion, the two most important factors, in order or importance are:

1. Planning the pass through the stage with particular emphasis on when and where to reload. As a Single Stack shooter, this is, by far, the most important speed issue to me. The plan will be different depending on the number of reloads required to complete a stage, but planning the most efficient way to shoot a stage will always be a critical element of speed.

2. Deciding how much accuracy is enough accuracy. If I had to guess, this element is more problematic for a former bullseye shooter than for others. Since I am one, I can only confirm that it was, and still is, an issue forme. My tendency is to focus on my sight picture and carefully place every shot. It took a while before the part of my mind that controls things during a stage, accepted the fact that sometimes, it's fine to just point and shoot and, perhaps as important to speed, when it's time to pull the trigger again. That part of my brain still does not have it completely right. I'm getting better, but there are still times that I take more time aiming than I need and times I don't take as much time as I should.

[rwmagnus]

Lee Bell nice post and while those things are true there are a few others also. Don't underestimate the movement issues saving you time. Effecient movement is a big big time saver which includes shooting on the move.

Having come from bullesyes shooting as well, speed is something I am still reminding myself before shooting a stage. I usually repeate something like "stay agressive" before I step ti the line. Bottom line is each target will didctate how fast you can go, it's a vision thing. Remember you don't need an "X" in fact you don't need all "A's either. Perfect scores are nice but most of the time not necessary. There are targets where a fast "C" works. My point is all bullet holes anywhere in the alpha zone count the same they don't need to be centered up.

This is a game of progressions or milestones. The longer you practice/shoot it the more you become aware of. Accuracy or speed isn't the question because both are necessary. Generally speaking stay around 90-95% of points. When you are going too fast and are getting less than those averages throttle it back until you are back getting 90%+ points.

Also study the information on this board as it will accelerate your learning curve. There are so many here that are willing to help it's awesome!

[stiracer]

Nothing is easy to teach.

The hardest thing is to teach the PRINCIPLE behind accuracy or speed. The fundamentals by comparison are easy.

From that standpoint, I would say teaching the principle of accuracy is harder than speed.

I think my fast little friend is right!

Speed is taught by watching movement and correcting wasted movement!

World Class speed is however a different story ................ You have to be in physical shape to manipulate movements at GM levels which is what i have noticed the difference between burning every stage down and blowing up a stage!................Physical abillity is a big factor in your abillity to maintain focus..............as in it is hard to be mentally tough when you are gasping for air!.......

Just my .02 cents

Sorry for the little friend thing Jake.....lol

Marc

Edited February 6, 2007 by stiracer

[Jake Di Vita]

Brock...that you homeboy?

[stiracer]

Brock...that you homeboy?

It's me my fast friend!..................I have made it out the other side of a bad divorce where i got nothing and payed for all her new stuff!..........With all the stuff i used to own.............But boy am i happy to be rid of her........lol..................But seriously I made it and I am on a mission to shoot and be happy!............so what's up Bro ?.........where are we shooting next...? P.M. me

[uscbigdawg]

I'll say this from my own experience. I've had moments in my shooting career where I can shoot VERY accurate and most times I'm just shooting really fast. When I'm lucky, they happen at the same time.

The first class I took with Mike Voigt, he said shoot me a group on a head box. Drilled 10 shots at like 15 yards in the A-zone with about .30 splits. He said, "well you know how to shoot so let's see what's wrong". That has stuck with me since. When I have a stage where points are down or there's a miss, I know that it's not a function of not knowing how to shoot accurately, but rather how to shoot fast accurately.

Saul Kirsch says it really well, in that practical shooting is the sacrifice of accuracy for speed. If you can shoot a 1" group all day long at say 25 yards, then your window of compromise is much larger than someone who can, at their best shoot a 3" group.

So, to answer the question, if we define speed as a compromise in accuracy, then the mechanics of shooting accurately are more easily taught than speed, since to understand speed one must know what the concept is of compromising accuracy.

Speed in a mechanical sense is also more difficult. But once you get it, it's almost like you're creating time. It's awesome. Again, another trick that Mike showed me was the value of transition speed over split times. In shooting 3 targets with two rounds each he showed me that shooting slower splits and faster transitions was much better in points and overall time than shooting super fast splits and slow/medium transitions. Obviously the goal is to have both, but the point is still valid.

So, if you have to do one over the other. Learn accuracy and the speed will come. It's an old line but still true. If you're not getting 90-95% of the points at a match, especially a club match, then you're going too fast.

Rich

[TommyGun]

I can teach accuracy all day (and I do now, I also teach the speed), but it seems to be very difficult to teach someone to take off like a bat outa hell to get to the next position to shoot.

When I started this game I ran as hard and as fast as I could. I wanted to be one of the "Big Dogs". I couldn't see their hits from a distance, but I could see they were much faster than me. Make the movements as fast and smoooooth as possible. "Smooth is Fast"

After a while of knocking down props and running over all kinds of stuff I started working on accuracy. Now it all seems to be second nature.

You must be able to let go of the one hole group and cut loose. Two A's at 7 yards can be an 8" group. How much time does it take to do that? I'm thinking about .13

So get out there and cut loose. I used to spend dry fire time running from box to box, and moving up and down. Also try running on a treadmill with your sights on a target. That will let you know how fast you will be able to move and shoot.

By the way guys I'm planning on shooting some more this year. Can't wait to see everyone again. My business is up and running smoothly so I should have a little more time to get back to business.

Tommy Thacker

Director of Training / Instructor

Northern Virginia Tactical, LLC

www.NVTactical.com

Edited February 18, 2007 by TommyGun