Religious Shooter Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 At a 3 gun match a couple of weeks ago I had a stovepipe with my shotgun and a failure to fire with my AR15. My reaction and clearance time was just awful. It wasn't automatic and I had to diagnose the problems. Thinking back to all my live fire practice sessions I have never practiced malfunction drills. The only time I have done live fire malfunction drills was during a class. I may have done a total of 10 reps in the last 5 years during dry-fire sessions. Jams with my shotgun and rifle have been pretty rare. I have never had a jam with my SVI during a match since I have owned it (about 1 1/2 years). My G34 has been 100% as well. With the equipment running close to 100% I haven't seen the need to practice malfunction drills. But to not have practiced it at all all these years now seems ... well not right. So given that a) a gun can run 99.9999% of the time and b ) you don't have a lot of time and want to maximize your performance, how often would you or do you practice malfunction clearance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konkapot Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 You should practice them enough to be able to do one fairly efficiently...........on demand. Granted they are rare, and a malf (no matter how fast you clear it) will put a serious hurt on your time for the stage.........but adding 3 seconds to your time (by being proficient at it) is far better than adding 13 seconds because you suck at it. FY42385 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzogun Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 First I need to get a gun that jams... Then I can practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 In order to learn it properly, you need a practice buddy and some dud rounds...have your bud load your mags without you looking...then you can practice some of the stoppage drills..You need to be able to recognize all the various types of stoppages and immediately know what to do...,past that, noone that I know, intentionally practices it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 (edited) How Often Should You Practice Clearing Jams? Whenever they happen. Do people practice this stuff? Edited February 8, 2006 by TDean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 I've never practiced clearing jams before, but I did buy a Llama many years ago that gave me all the practice I needed. Converted a .38 Super to .45 with a $50 surplus slide and other cheesy parts that gave me plenty of practice as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Frankly - at the top levels of our sport (or, really, even in inter-division competition), a jam can spell the end of your contention. You would do much better to aquire and maintain equipment and ammo that will not jam. I don't practice clearing drills - though I did for a short period of time when I was brand spakin' new, just so I knew what I'd need to do.... It should be a sign to you, though, about the state of your gear - you're concerned enough about clearing jams that you're thinking about practicing that, when you could be practicing hitting the target more quickly, reloading the guns, etc, etc, etc Your speed at clearing jams isn't going to win you a competition (unless you have no one at your level playing that day)... the other things will... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzShooter Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 "What's a jam?" says the revolver shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Man, that is when the cylinder won't turn.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCK Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 (edited) Man, that is when the cylinder won't turn.... Its when someone sneaks a drop of superglue into the cylinder right before the shooter moves to the line. Edited February 9, 2006 by TCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted February 9, 2006 Share Posted February 9, 2006 Frankly - at the top levels of our sport (or, really, even in inter-division competition), a jam can spell the end of your contention. You would do much better to aquire and maintain equipment and ammo that will not jam. +1 Amen to that, Brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 There is no such thing as equipment or ammo that will not jam. Whether you are a competitive shooter only or practice for other reasons I would practice your malfunction drills with the rifle and pistol. Both weapons will eventually jam no matter how well maintained. Does it need to be part of your daily dry fire or live fire drills? No, but it should be routinely practiced. I practice the Tap Rack Bang as a side effect to conducting ball and dummy drills by randomly loading one dummy round in every magazine I load. I do the same for the rifle by loading one dummy round per 10 rounds to practice weapon transitions. Most rifle malfunctions become worse because of shooter induced errors. I would Look to Bennie Cooley for the most in depth rifle malfunction techniques. Again, this is not something I do daily. I practice this one day out of about 20 practice days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmitz Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 (edited) I'm shooting in Dutch IPSC-competition since 01. My SV's never failed during practise or competition, so I never practised clearing a jam...never thought about it eather... Good tip to embed clearing a jam in practise...thx Castle. Edited February 27, 2006 by schmitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 ****Caution***** Only do the tap rack drill with case guaged ammo unless you want some SERIOUS jams. I've seen more than a few people really jam up their gun with that particular method because it is amazing how hard you can tap with adrenaline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 There is no such thing as equipment or ammo that will not jam. I've currently put approximately 40-45K rounds through a total of 3 different raceguns (an EAA based 9x21 gun, and two S_I guns). I've never experienced a jam in that number of rounds. I clean every 500-1000 rounds. I run grease on my raceguns - in fact, I ran SG Lite on my racegun recently in 40 degree weather - no problems. You're making a rather bold, unsubstantiated statement here (as you have in other threads). Just because *you* haven't invested the time and money into equipment that won't malfunction doesn't mean that equipment is not out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin garcia Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 Adding malf drill into your practice regimen is not so bad. Remeber Murphy's law. Just keep in mind this drill will help you in the event of a real malf, unexpected or not. For those that have not/will not experienced a jam, you guys are really LUCKY, I envy you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 Jam clearing practice should be very low on the 'things to practice' priority list. If you have a gun that jams a lot, you'll get all the practice you need. If you have one that doesn't, you won't need it. If you do get a jam in a match, speed is about the last thing you want. You've already blown your time, so concentrate on being safe and getting all the A's you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 For those that have not/will not experienced a jam, you guys are really LUCKY, I envy you. This is one of those cases where you make your own luck. I've had plenty of jams in certain guns (one of them being my current L-10 gun). I've either troubleshot them and found the combo that works - and stick to it - or I've moved on to something else. Period. As far as custom built guns go - I use a smith that I trust and that has a record of turning out guns that don't jam. There are several out there. Then, I use mags that work (or tune them, if they don't), maintain the gun (keep springs fresh enough in the gun and mags, for instance), and am dilligent about checking my ammo for things like high primers. If I'm going to spend this much money on this game, I'm not going to accept equipment that won't run. BTW - while I was figuring things out w/ my L-10 gun, I had the opportunity to clear a bunch of jams. I was extremely quick and snappy about it (some of the members of this forum witnessed that stuff and can attest...). Your speed at clearing jams will not depend upon how many times you've run a tap-rack-bang drill or something like that, that you know is coming. It will depend upon your ability to quickly perceive the malf, and it's nature, and take appropriate action (which will generally match your ability to do any other task "at speed"). I don't practice malfunction clearing drills, yet I'm able to clear them quickly when they occur. I see no reason to practice them. I still stand by my original assertion that you should spend time, instead, finding equipment that works 100% of the time, learn how to keep it that way, and then practice the things that do matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin garcia Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 xre, no arguments here. i respect your assertion. +1 on shred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted February 28, 2006 Author Share Posted February 28, 2006 This is one of those cases where you make your own luck. I've had plenty of jams in certain guns (one of them being my current L-10 gun). ... BTW - while I was figuring things out w/ my L-10 gun, I had the opportunity to clear a bunch of jams. Well it looks like you did "practice" clearing jams. You just did it during matches. It's been often written on BE how Mike V and Jerry M have lost championships (National even!) due to a malfunctioning firearm. I've read on Front Sight on how Taran B had extractor woes at a major match. Kay M had problems with her shotgun (IIRC) at the Nationals according to FS. I've heard scuttlebut of sponsored shooters who were peeved with a former sponsor that couldn't/wouldn't give him/her a working gun. I'm sure if we polled them we could go on and on on how the big doggies in our sport have had equipment problems. I think there is an underlying assumption that some of us don't know that 100% reliability is a desireable outcome or goal. I'm pretty sure that Voight, the Miculeks, etc. have reliabilty in their equipment as a primary goal. And yet the jams still occur. You either believe in practicing malfunction clearance or not. I think my question should have been: Of those who practice malfunction drills... How often do you do it? ****Caution*****Only do the tap rack drill with case guaged ammo unless you want some SERIOUS jams. I've seen more than a few people really jam up their gun with that particular method because it is amazing how hard you can tap with adrenaline. Doesn't the "tap" refer to hitting the inserted magazine on the bottom to insure that it is seated? I'm not quite seeing why ammo that is or is not case gauged would somehow affect this technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Sorry I should have been more clear, I was refering to the "tap" that some people do when the gun doesn't go all the way into battery (on the rear of the slide.) We have some "seasoned shooters" that apparently were trained this way many moons ago, and it sure has caused some nasty jams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 It's been often written on BE how Mike V and Jerry M have lost championships (National even!) due to a malfunctioning firearm. I've read on Front Sight on how Taran B had extractor woes at a major match. Kay M had problems with her shotgun (IIRC) at the Nationals according to FS. I've heard scuttlebut of sponsored shooters who were peeved with a former sponsor that couldn't/wouldn't give him/her a working gun. I'm sure if we polled them we could go on and on on how the big doggies in our sport have had equipment problems. Doesn't the "tap" refer to hitting the inserted magazine on the bottom to insure that it is seated? The traditional 'tap' on the bottom of the mag is pretty much a waste of time with a widebody like an STI-- either the mag is locked in or it's on the ground at your feet. I think the origins of the 'tap' are in carry wherein the mag button could get pushed during the day, springing the mag out a little. I don't bother to practice jam clearing on pistols-- it's pretty much automatic for me to rack the slide and if that doesn't work, reload. After that you have to stop and figure out what's wrong anyway. I would guess that for most shooters, a few years of experience gets them to this point. If it's something that can jam in bizzare manners like some AR bolt-over jams, then it might be worth working through it a few times off the clock. Everybody loves to blame jams for losing matches, but ... Grauffel told me he had 2 jams last year, due to a magazine going bad, and both during the US Nationals. He didn't lose the match because of them and he didn't win that match on his superior jam-clearing technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Precision Designs Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Clearing jams during competition can be a pain in the arse. The inmediate loss in most cases will be concentration and focus, in addition of time. Usually things go downhill from there to a disapointing finish. To the average shooter anyway. Others who have had the fortune/misfortune of being exposed to them seem to clear them and go on with very little changes in their time, akin to a mag change. I hate doing repairs. I'd rather be building them than diagnosing them. The best cure I've found so far is to be aware of your gun, and to peripherally see it functioning without making it an issue. I see many shooters pulling the trigger in a gun that went to slide lock, not being aware of that fact, and then react in disgust... The cure here is to "have felt" the gun going into slide lock, whether it did it with rounds remaining or after going empty. Don't dwell on why, just that it did it, and correct according to your plan/contingency. But wait. Most of the times many shooters do not have a plan/contingency, because of "inexperience" with it. Then by all means learn from somebody elses misfortunes, but learn, because eventually it will happen to you too. I have had more than my share of experience with clearing malfunctions, mainly from correcting them in other shooters guns or from experimenting or fitting new guns. So I have developed "the feel" easier than most shooters. Nothing to brag about, I assure you. But it has allowed me to develp the awareness of the condition of the gun in my hand as the malfunction happens, to indicate the course of action to follow. Most of us know of the "squib" malfunction and how to proceed. But not everybody, which can be disastrous. The first rule, is not to assume that "all" malfunctions can be solved by re-racking the slide/bolt/pump and then pulling the trigger. Be aware of the condition of your gun by feel/instinct/knowledge. A good drill is changing a mag, but using a mag that sometimes "sticks" and won't fall freely. Mix it with other mags that eject properly and practice mag changes. Sounds like an exercise in futility, but it will help a lot by teaching you patience and not loosing your cool when it happens during a match, and by developing a routine to clear the problem. (Ask most Glock shooters.) The best practice by far is to quickly look at your ejection port quickly and take note of what is going on in there before you proceed with re-racking. Do you have a stove-pipe? Is the stovepipe sideways or straight in-line over the fresh round? Do you have two rounds trying to feed in at the same time? Do you have a round lodged in your feed ramp? Is the slide/bolt closed? Etc. etc. You must first ascertain the issue and then from knowledge, preceed. By far the most efficient cure I've found (once you ascertain the problem) is to first drop the mag installed (regardless of the remaining rounds in it), then pull the slide/bolt back and hold it there while tilting/shaking sideways to make sure the "breech" is clear and the insert a new/fresh mag and rack it. Alernatively, depending on the jam, in situations such as double feeds or ramp-sticking, you can just remove and re-insert the same mag, and then re-rack. While it may sound like "heresy" (as a practice drill) I would suggest finding/obtaining a mag that malfunctions consistently, and practice with it. This way you will never have the excuse of later on saying: "oh, but my gun never malfunctioned before, so I didn't know what to do!". Because, believe it, sooner than later it will happen to all at the worst moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Nice post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewcolglazier Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 That was a good post! I agree with it completely!! Andy C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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