Local Match Payouts

[Shadow]

A local USPSA club that has only been in existence for a couple of years has begun taking flack for their payout system. The club was created to encourage military shooters to participate and improve their practical pistol marksmanship. They provide free 9mm/.45ACP ammo to the military shooters. Civilians are also allowed to participate. Because of their low overhead and and desire to remain non-profit, they have been making substantial cash payouts. They average between 50-90 shooters per match with the majority being new/unclassified. They have pretty much reached max capacity for the match. Because of the large payout and high quality stages, they are attracting top shooters from all over the state.

They have been paying the top shooters in each division (typically 1-3) based on the overall number of shooters. They have not paid by class. They also have a raffle for a substantial amount for shooters who help break down the stages. Their philosophy on payouts is that if you want an award, keep practicing until you get there. They typically do not have five shooters in any one class within a division, and most of the shooters are unclassified. Some of the local civilian USPSA shooters (not the new shooters) are complaining that they have to/should pay by class.

Without getting into the USPSA class welfare argument, is there any USPSA requirement for them to give awards by class?

My thought is that as long as they state how they're paying out in advance, its up to them, and shooters can either participate or not.

Comments?

Edited January 24, 2006 by Shadow

[Crusher]

IMHO when it comes to winning cash for performance "happiness is at the TOP of the food chain"

[AlamoShooter]

Ths sporting clay shoots used to pay out a lots of cash.

But the averag shooter was paying a higher match fee so the top class shooters could win money.

Lewis Class system is a proven method to prevent 'Class Sharks' and 'Cash Hounds'

You can find information about it at the nssa-nsca.com web site

Lewis Class will take all the shooters in to four classes the top 25% 50%-75% 25% to 50% and the bottom 25 %

if you had 100 shooters #1 is best score wins =HOA shooter placed at 75th place wins B 50th wins C 25th wins D

The shooter in 51st place gets a pat on the back for placeing in a higher class but the 50th place shooter gets the prise.

no one knows when they are shooting how they will place eccept mayby the best guy.

If you get a rule book on Lewis Class you may have a chance to get the match director to make a change.

[GeorgeInNePa]

A local USPSA club that has only been in existence for a couple of years has begun taking flack for their payout system. The club was created to encourage military shooters to participate and improve their practical pistol marksmanship. They provide free 9mm/.45ACP ammo to the military shooters. Civilians are also allowed to participate. Because of their low overhead and and desire to remain non-profit, they have been making substantial cash payouts. They average between 50-90 shooters per match with the majority being new/unclassified. They have pretty much reached max capacity for the match. Because of the large payout and high quality stages, they are attracting top shooters from all over the state.

They have been paying the top shooters in each division (typically 1-3) based on the overall number of shooters. They have not paid by class. They also have a raffle for a substantial amount for shooters who help break down the stages. Their philosophy on payouts is that if you want an award, keep practicing until you get there. They typically do not have five shooters in any one class within a division, and most of the shooters are unclassified. Some of the local civilian USPSA shooters (not the new shooters) are complaining that they have to/should pay by class.

Without getting into the USPSA class welfare argument, is there any USPSA requirement for them to give awards by class?

My thought is that as long as they state how they're paying out in advance, its up to them, and shooters can either participate or not.

Comments?

Up here(Mid-Atlantic Section) there is a set policy(or could it be a guideline?) that the match directors follow for payouts. Match fees are $20, they pay $25 for a division win, classes follow the 5 people in class to pay out 1st, etc.

I don't think there is anything in the rulebook that governs payouts.

[Nik Habicht]

Up here(Mid-Atlantic Section) there is a set policy(or could it be a guideline?) that the match directors follow for payouts. Match fees are $20, they pay $25 for a division win, classes follow the 5 people in class to pay out 1st, etc.

I don't think there is anything in the rulebook that governs payouts.

George has it almost correct. In the Mid-Atlantic Section we pay Division winners $30.- as long as there are five entries in the division, Class winners within the division get paid $20.- as long as there are three shooters in the class/division. After eight shooters in class, we pay $12.- to the second in class.....

[XRe]

AFAIK, there's no set requirement. As long as it's a published policy, the shooter has the choice to attend the match or not... ie, if the non-winning shooters stop showing up, there won't *be* a payout

[GeorgeInNePa]

Up here(Mid-Atlantic Section) there is a set policy(or could it be a guideline?) that the match directors follow for payouts. Match fees are $20, they pay $25 for a division win, classes follow the 5 people in class to pay out 1st, etc.

I don't think there is anything in the rulebook that governs payouts.

George has it almost correct. In the Mid-Atlantic Section we pay Division winners $30.- as long as there are five entries in the division, Class winners within the division get paid $20.- as long as there are three shooters in the class/division. After eight shooters in class, we pay $12.- to the second in class.....

Nik,

I knew it was something like that. I couldn't remember if it was 25 or 30 for a division win.

I should have remembered it's a free match and a couple of beers.

[SteveZ]

George has it almost correct. In the Mid-Atlantic Section we pay Division winners $30.- as long as there are five entries in the division, Class winners within the division get paid $20.- as long as there are three shooters in the class/division. After eight shooters in class, we pay $12.- to the second in class.....

Interesting. I'm not aware of any club here in the PNW that does cash payouts. Is this something thats common on the east coast? Also, do you guys have the problem of Limited shooters deciding to download and shoot L10 so they can win the division?

[Jim Norman]

George has it almost correct. In the Mid-Atlantic Section we pay Division winners $30.- as long as there are five entries in the division, Class winners within the division get paid $20.- as long as there are three shooters in the class/division. After eight shooters in class, we pay $12.- to the second in class.....

Interesting. I'm not aware of any club here in the PNW that does cash payouts. Is this something thats common on the east coast? Also, do you guys have the problem of Limited shooters deciding to download and shoot L10 so they can win the division?

Very often we see ourselves paying out top in 4 divisions. I think that when SS gets a bit more press we'll be paying there as well. We usually have Class wins in B & C and an occassional 2nd C. Lately with all the new shooters we are seeing D get paid as well.

As for Limited shooting in L-10, what is the problem there?

Jim

Edited January 24, 2006 by Jim Norman

[Jon Merricks]

Some of the local civilian USPSA shooters (not the new shooters) are complaining that they have to/should pay by class.

Me being one of the "civilian" shooters, do not have a problem with the way they pay out (I do normally get paid though). These guys put alot of effort into there match and as far as I'm aware have always paid out the same way.

Shadow/Jim, Since you know who complained please PM me the names and if it's any of the guys I shoot with I'll talk to them.

Edited January 24, 2006 by Jon Merricks

[Vlad]

Also, do you guys have the problem of Limited shooters deciding to download and shoot L10 so they can win the division?

The guys that always shoot L10, generaly win L10. Mostly they shoot single stacks. I have not heard a single one complain when someone shoots a wide body. I think the Limited shooter who sometimes downloads and shoots L10 is at a disadvantage to the L10 shooter who really knows how to plan his reloads. Plus some single stack folks around here make a sport out of reloading their guns about as fast as a wide body.

[tightloop]

Sorry Alamoshooter

Lewis Class sucks big time....you should be paid on what you can accomplish not on the luck of the draw on where you finish...if you don;t get paid often enough to suit you, there is always practice and dry fire..STOP WHINING and get to work....

If you aren't the lead dog, the scenery never changes...

[shred]

Lewis is a great way to randomly reward people for showing up but also give them some vague sort of ranking (near the top of B, lower A, etc). GSSF uses it to great effect.

Around here none of the local matches have a payout

[XRe]

Lewis Class sucks big time....

I agree with this, personally - but I can see the arguments either way. Certainly, it works for Glock - it prevents the difficulties we have with our current classification system, and still provides classes. You could do a modified Lewis - and make the cutoffs at 95%, 85%, 75%, 60%, and 40%....

[BSeevers]

I can't remember a club paying around here since the early 90's. The club I run gives plaques and its the only one that does that.

[davidball]

I shoot matches at five clubs in Indiana and Northern Kentucky. None of them (us) have cash payouts. I wasn't even aware that this was at all common until reading this thread.

[AikiDale]

Sorry Alamoshooter

Lewis Class sucks big time....you should be paid on what you can accomplish not on the luck of the draw on where you finish...if you don;t get paid often enough to suit you, there is always practice and dry fire..STOP WHINING and get to work....

If you aren't the lead dog, the scenery never changes...

Amen! Shooting prizes should be for shooting accomplishments. Door prizes should be for showing up.

[SteveZ]

The guys that always shoot L10, generaly win L10. Mostly they shoot single stacks. I have not heard a single one complain when someone shoots a wide body. I think the Limited shooter who sometimes downloads and shoots L10 is at a disadvantage to the L10 shooter who really knows how to plan his reloads. Plus some single stack folks around here make a sport out of reloading their guns about as fast as a wide body.

That's about the most intelligent thing I've read regarding this so-called "problem" in quite a while. I've never agreed that there is an widebody advantage over single stacks in L10 but some insist that there is and that Limited shooters will go looking for an easy win after sizing up their competition in Limited for the day. If divisional payouts are being given...I was wondering if that might have been part of the motivation for divison jumping (assuming it even exists) too.

All of our clubs hand out pins (sometimes) for division/class wins. Shooting is supposed to be about having fun...not "whats in it for me"....others mileage may vary.

Edited January 24, 2006 by SteveZ

[AlamoShooter]

Sorry Alamoshooter

Lewis Class sucks big time.....STOP WHINING and get to work....

If you aren't the lead dog, the scenery never changes...

Wow Dude = the guy asked how to spread thing out for unclassified once a month shooter.

I was not saying that I like Lewis Class, and maybe it does suck,

But If you make MR normal pay extra to the top guy ..the club will suffer - unless its the only game in town. and thin Mr normal will play golf instead.

I bet we both have seen lots of club close down. and it is always because of a lack of Mr Normals.

I personaly do not want anything I have not earned. = including my reputation as a bad speller

Jamie Foote

The guys that always shoot L10, generaly win L10. Mostly they shoot single stacks. I have not heard a single one complain when someone shoots a wide body. I think the Limited shooter who sometimes downloads and shoots L10 is at a disadvantage to the L10 shooter who really knows how to plan his reloads. Plus some single stack folks around here make a sport out of reloading their guns about as fast as a wide body.

That's about the most intelligent thing I've read regarding this so-called "problem" in quite a while. I've never agreed that there is an widebody advantage over single stacks in L10 but some insist that there is and that Limited shooters will go looking for an easy win after sizing up their competition in Limited for the day. If divisional payouts are being given...I was wondering if that might have been part of the motivation for divison jumping (assuming it even exists) too.

All of our clubs hand out pins (sometimes) for division/class wins. Shooting is supposed to be about having fun...not "whats in it for me"....others mileage may vary.

Nice post Steve

Jamie Foote

Edited January 24, 2006 by AlamoShooter

[boo radley]

I've shot this match a couple times -- and it kicks my *($#W* every time.

I'm a long, long way from having a chance at the prize money, but it seems that paying the top 3 places -- regardless of USPSA class -- in each division provided "n" number of shooters, is a fair way to do things. And there's a random drawing anyway, for those sticking around....

I hope the complainers don't screw this match up for those of us that are civilians.

That said, if you're also collecting general feedback, Shadow, I would say first -- consistently excellent job on the stages and setup, and second -- are the stages almost *too* elaborate,sometimes, given the number of new shooters? The most recent match I shot there had one Texas Star on one stage, and the next stage had TWO more.

[SRT Driver]

Our club awards free shoots to the top divisional and class competitors if there are enough in each.

[tightloop]

Alamoshooter

Nothing personally, just my .02 worth....you have to remember that this sport used to shoot Heads Up, with no classes at all, and IIRC, did pretty well that way...The classes are just for the masses anyway...for the folks that want to come back home and proclaim that they are D Class Limited Natl Champ...for those of us that live in Tx that is about the equal of telling your neighbors that you made the All England croquet team.....

[Jim Norman]

Some people shoot to win overall. They actually have a chance to do so. Some people shoot to win their Class because they are in D or C and they will not move up, ever. Age, Time, Physical ability places them where they are and they are there for good. They compete within their world. At our clubs locally their is great rivalry for top B in production, used to be for top C, but the guys moved up a bit.

Open, JJ shoots here, the race is for second place most all the time unless some other top dog shows up. We of the over 50 are unlikely to out run or out see the under 30 crew. Most of us are back competeing after taking off 20 years to raise family or run business or go sailing.

I think that the Class system is fine, yes there are a few sandbaggers, generally they are known. htere are a few people that wait to decide what division they will shoot till they see who shows up and what they are shooting. They are known and frankly looked down on. THere are Grand Baggers as well. So what, Go get an M card by practiciing 6 classifiers till you can do them blindfolded. that is not what USPSA shooting is about. it is about being able to disect a COF in a few minutes and shoot it cold, one time for score.

Jim

[Vlad]

Being that I shoot the same matches Jim refers to, and being one of those guys fighting for top B production, I have to say I like the payout per class/division. Not that win often, I think I won like $20 once. But it is nice to come by next match and hear you named called and being handed a check. It isnt even about the money, it is about the recognition.

As Jim said, some people will never move out of C or B. But they still compete. We keep on telling new shooters that they dont shoot against the whole field, just against themselves and those in their class, it might as well try to make it true

[tightloop]

Jim

Not to be argumentative,but what USPSA is, is what each shooter personally wants it to be for them; and that isn't necessarily being able to disect a COF in a few minutes and shoot it cold once for score...

Some like the chance to see how they stack up against the best at that match regardless of classification or division. Some just like to hear the pistol go off. Some are content to compete within a small group of friendly advisaries, but having talked to Cooper at length on this same topic, HIS intention was to find out who on any particular day, was King of the Hill, when tested against various types of stages regardless of classification or division (which were nonexistent at that time)..that is the reason there was no class system...He did not initially mean for the sport to appeal to the masses (which would clamor for divisions and classes, which he understood). He wanted to see who was BEST on one individual day....then Jake Jatras came onto the scene and along with him came what the masses wanted, classes, divisions, and in conjunction with those things came the equipment race which is still going on, although a little more behind the scenes than in 1980.

It was also never supposed to be a cash pay out kind of sport....initially only to shoot for plaques and ribbons, and then that got way out of hand also...

So, some of the old tenets are not so bad when taken in the proper context.

The purpose of the sport truly depends on the individual shooter and what they are looking for within their personal shooting...and like Kimberkid says, sometimes when we get old, we just like to bitch and moan about the way things used to be.... IMHO, cash payouts and prize tables are out of place in a sport like this one..if you want to possibly win something, go to the track and watch the dogs or horses do their thing....