Local Match Payouts

[GeorgeInNePa]

I just wanted to add that I also shoot in the Eastern Lakes Section of Area 7 twice a month. The two clubs we shoot at there only give out free shoots to the winners, and I'm fine with that too.

A few bucks or a free shoot, just a little something for the winner is nice.

[Ron Ankeny]

We only give cash back at our steel match, top down, dog eat dog, no classes. Our IPSC matches are very small and every dime we take in goes out in expenses. That's why our fee is so low. As for cash pay outs, I have always believed in paying back from the top down in order of finish overall. I would rather see a complete lottery system than to see someone who shot an inferior score go home with a bag of marbles while someone who shot a better score in a higher class go home empty handed.

[AlamoShooter]

Jim

Not to be argumentative,but what USPSA is, is what each shooter personally wants it to be ...cash payouts and prize tables are out of place in a sport like this one..if you want to possibly win something, go to the track and watch the dogs or horses do their thing....

Truth has a nice sound = great post TightLoop

Jamie

[Shadow]

Jon- Shoot me an email at jhilsen@aol.com and I'll email you. The email link in your profile didn't work for me. I didn't mean to imply that they were considering banning civilian shooters, they're not to my knowledge (I'm one of you (civilians) now).

Boo- Thanks for the input, but I don't run the match.

Jon/Boo- I heard about the complaints from a friend of mine, and then got an email from Jon S. who runs the match mentioning the same thing. Although he didn't say it, I think he feels like he's being accused of doing something wrong by paying the top shooters in each division and not by class. He puts a tremendous amount of work into this match and I hate to see him feel this way. I've emailed him my thoughts. I don't see a problem as long as its announced in advance. Those who don't like it don't have to shoot. On the other hand, I see no problem with it being brought up for consideration. When I ran a local club, we did cash payouts for HOA and by class because it was easier than making certificates or buying trophies, but it was a major hassle determing how much to pay. It would be an even bigger hassle for this match.

All- Part of the problem is the division winners often get $100 (amazing for a local match). I think this amount inspires a considerable amount of jealousy from some shooters who know they would win their class if the payout was by class. To those who say not paying the lower shooters will eventually dry up the pool; not a chance. This club runs state/area quality stages and has the high payout. Those who have shot it recently know they have more shooters than can be efficiently handled and are continuing to grow.

I'll shoot regardless of what they decide, but prefer what they're doing now. I know one of these days I'll kick Chris Tilley's butt and take HOA in open!

[Jim Norman]

Jim

Not to be argumentative,but what USPSA is, is what each shooter personally wants it to be for them; and that isn't necessarily being able to disect a COF in a few minutes and shoot it cold once for score...

Some like the chance to see how they stack up against the best at that match regardless of classification or division. Some just like to hear the pistol go off. Some are content to compete within a small group of friendly advisaries, but having talked to Cooper at length on this same topic, HIS intention was to find out who on any particular day, was King of the Hill, when tested against various types of stages regardless of classification or division (which were nonexistent at that time)..that is the reason there was no class system...He did not initially mean for the sport to appeal to the masses (which would clamor for divisions and classes, which he understood). He wanted to see who was BEST on one individual day....then Jake Jatras came onto the scene and along with him came what the masses wanted, classes, divisions, and in conjunction with those things came the equipment race which is still going on, although a little more behind the scenes than in 1980.

It was also never supposed to be a cash pay out kind of sport....initially only to shoot for plaques and ribbons, and then that got way out of hand also...

So, some of the old tenets are not so bad when taken in the proper context.

The purpose of the sport truly depends on the individual shooter and what they are looking for within their personal shooting...and like Kimberkid says, sometimes when we get old, we just like to bitch and moan about the way things used to be.... IMHO, cash payouts and prize tables are out of place in a sport like this one..if you want to possibly win something, go to the track and watch the dogs or horses do their thing....

Unless I totally mis-spoke, I think that we are onthe same page here.

There are those that are only concerned with being Top-Gun. There are those that are happy to be within X% of the top guy. There are those that happy to compete at what ever level they are currently at.

To be honest. I fall into all of these catagories at the same time. I want to win, I have won-locally, I have won my class at larger venues and I am generally not last at the national level.

Most of us are competitve or we wouldn't be here. Some of us are more competitive than others. SOme of have more talent or more time or more drive than others. Some of us simply show up because we like to shoot and really don't care where we finish as long as we spend a day out with friends.

All in all, USPSA has a place for every one of us. For this I am thankful. Also I can shoot virtually any gun I own from my cheapest revolver to my costliest race gun. I don't need to spend a fortune to be competive here. Race sailboats, VERY Expensive, same for cars and motorcycles. Here is the one place you can buy true stock equipment and win the National championship. Think Dave and Glock. Under $800 in equipment.

Jim

[sleipnir]

So, if they want to remain a non-profit organization and encourage military shooters why don't they lower entry fees (military salaries are reputed to be a little lean) and give awards to the various classes where, I suspect, most of the military shooters are classed.

[Kimberkid]

Here's an idea...

Stop the payouts. No payouts at all for 6 months. Any money over costs goes into more props or buys lunch for anyone that wants, or gets donated to a local charity. Then after 6 months, without any word to anyone about it, start them back up. See who stays and shoots.

I dont think that Lewis Class is the best thing either, but if it isnt about the money, why are the top shooters so pissed about losing it? Try running a prize table from last place to first, after all, these shooters who dont do as well could put the gear to better use.

As an aside, cuz I wont sleep right if I dont say something...

To say that heads up is the only way to shoot, and one shouldnt be proud of about a class win, regardless of what class it is, is the worst thing you can do for the sport. We all welcome new shooters, but then when they win C class we tell them it aint shit and not to talk until they win something bigger. If I win my class at the Nationals, you better believe I am gonna be proud, tell my momma, and put my plaque on the mantle. I recall a past Hate thread on this that got a lot of nice responses, and yet here, as we have seen, those that dont learn from their history, tend to repeat it.

[tightloop]

Kkid

That is the beauty of this sport, you can get what you need from it...For me personally, I am more proud of making the top 25 nationally than all the local matches I won, and it was shooting heads up...Also for me, the thought of displaying a National Championship trophy from a lower class might be nice, but it would constantly remind me how far I had to go to run with the Big Dawgs...Just my perspective

[Shadow]

Sleipnir-

They charge the standard $20 dollar entry fee that all the clubs around here charge. Their attendance has just exploded. As mentioned, they are already providing free ammo to the military shooters. Most of the military shooters are unclassified, most haven't joined USPSA, and almost all shoot either production or single stack 1911s in limited or limited 10. Since they are unclassified, the majority of the military are shooting for HOA anyway.

[sleipnir]

So maybe they let the military members shoot for free (no fee & free ammo) and take the prize money from the civilians after expenses.

[Shadow]

So maybe they let the military members shoot for free (no fee & free ammo) and take the prize money from the civilians after expenses.

Since probably 80% of the shooters are military, this probably wouldn't work. They don't necessarily want to change, they were just concerned about the grumblings of not paying back by class and were trying to find out if there was any USPSA requirement to do so.

[AlamoShooter]

Its very good things are going so well. If it isn't broke dont fix it.

I have sean thing go bad for clubs and ranges. Its no fun to have them close.

It sounds like you could give us some advise on how to get so many shooters out to a match, and still keep everyone so happy.

Jamie Foote

[Kimberkid]

TL~ Go ahead and be proud of whatever you want, you earned it. But it is a cold and cruel thing to tell others they shouldnt be proud of something "less". Why do I care where I rank Nationally? I dont shoot Nationally, I shoot here. To beat the guys I see everday around town, and all my match buddies, means a whole lot more to me than a bunch of people I dont know. Also, we have 100 times more shooters today than we did in the early 80's, making heads up even more discouraging.

I'm so glad I been in this sport a couple years now, cuz if I was new I for sure wouldnt be coming back.

[SRT Driver]

That is the beauty of this sport, you can get what you need from it...For me personally, I am more proud of making the top 25 nationally than all the local matches I won, and it was shooting heads up...Also for me, the thought of displaying a National Championship trophy from a lower class might be nice, but it would constantly remind me how far I had to go to run with the Big Dawgs...Just my perspective

TL,

Great and I hear ya. But when you are at the top (GM, M) you are shooting heads up anyway..right? For the match win.

Why not give the D & C class shooters who work just as hard..if not harder..their accolades.

Some may never get to the level necessary to win a local match, let alone a Nats. That does not mean that their accomplishments, of a personal nature, are no less note worthy.

After all the vast majority (around 90%) of members are B & C class and without them there wouldn't be a National Championship for you or anyone to place in. No $$$, no match.

2c

[AlamoShooter]

TL~ Go ahead and be proud of whatever you want, you earned it. But it is a cold and cruel thing to tell others they shouldnt be proud of something "less". Why do I care where I rank Nationally? I dont shoot Nationally, I shoot here. To beat the guys I see everday around town, and all my match buddies, means a whole lot more to me than a bunch of people I dont know. Also, we have 100 times more shooters today than we did in the early 80's, making heads up even more discouraging.

I'm so glad I been in this sport a couple years now, cuz if I was new I for sure wouldnt be coming back.

KimberKid

You have no Idea how important -You- are. its the Kimber Kids that give the rest of bunch a sport worth shooting. I am starting my 14th year of runing a small pistole club. Our club has 1/5th the shooters we used to- in 1993 we had 75 +members now we have less than 15.

It is the Kimber Kids that make the Dillions & STIs & SVs and Shooters Conections stay in bussiness. With out Kimber Kid the matches at every level would be flat. If the home Clubs did not have K.Kids the big dogs would not be able to keep a range and club open.

And on Trophys

I saw a top national shooter after a sporting clays 'Shoot'! his trophy after an event one time. He was so stupid as to do it on the presintation ground area, infront of the rest of us B/C and A class shooters.

I do know how important every trophy is when you are just starting out. I know to never refuse a club trophy 'in front of the rest of the shooters at the match.

Make shurr when you help a freind "get started" and he may see a C class second ribion that you have on a dusty shelf. Tell him you save them all.

[Jon Merricks]

Let's stay on track guys. Or just start another thread.

[boo radley]

Boo- Thanks for the input, but I don't run the match.

Jon/Boo- I heard about the complaints from a friend of mine, and then got an email from Jon S. who runs the match mentioning the same thing. Although he didn't say it, I think he feels like he's being accused of doing something wrong by paying the top shooters in each division and not by class [....] I'll shoot regardless of what they decide, but prefer what they're doing now. I know one of these days I'll kick Chris Tilley's butt and take HOA in open!

Shadow -- I don't know Jon Smith, but I sent him an email saying I appreciated the work he and his team do setting up these matches, and that I hope they don't change things, except to...well, maybe make things a *bit* quicker, although in all fairness I don't think he expected 80+ shooters....

You know I was looking at the results on the USPSA website (btw, good job, Jon M!), and while granted Chris Tilley or another GM like Kert Gaskill might be tough to knock out of the '1' spot, I don't see it being inconceivable at all, that someone with enough practice could place 2nd or 3rd in some division, and win $ at some point; especially in L10 or Production.

Steve

[sargenv]

A couple of the clubs I shoot at give out Primers depending on where you place. Match winner gets 1k, and then it goes by division, Class winner gets 600, 2nd in class gets 400, 3rd gets 200, and so on, there has to be at least 3 People per class, to win primers.. They hand out Winchester primers, you get to choose which (SP, LP, SR). I generally place somewhere where I will get primers, and after paying $20 for a match entry, it's nice to get one expense covered (ok so 200 primers is like $4-$5, it helped defray some costs) One of the clubs allows you to shoot 2 divisons. I placed first in one division and 2nd in another and got 1k primers. So after paying $40 in match fees, I got back $15 in primers. I was a happy camper

Vince

[Jim Norman]

Interesting. I wonder, IF we charged $5 less across the board, but paid no prizes, just gave out a cetificate saying " I WON", how many people would still show up? We used to offer trophy, plaque or cash. We getr very few people that want the plaques. only one got a trophy that I know of, that was an error, he ment to check plaque. Most people after they have a handful of plaques would just as soon get a check. First win or two, a plaque is nice. After that, unless it is a Sectional, Area or better, what do you do with them? Especially if you are one of the guys that wins 90% of the local matches that you shoot? You can quickly collect 24-52 plaques a year!

Still I would think that no prize or recognition is not a good thing. Most people love to hear their name called into the winners circle.

This is one reason to maintain classes and to award class wins. Think about it. NHRA has a class for everyone, the guy with his Dad's Nova doesn't compete against the AA Fuel Rails. Same as in USPSA, the guy with the Glock does'nt compete against the STI Open gun and the Pros (GM'S) are in a class by themselves, the D-class guys, even withthe same equipment are not competing against the GM's.

This is as it should be, unless we want to kill the sport.

My Opinion.

Jim

[tightloop]

Interesting. I wonder, IF we charged $5 less across the board, but paid no prizes, just gave out a cetificate saying " I WON", how many people would still show up? We used to offer trophy, plaque or cash. We getr very few people that want the plaques. only one got a trophy that I know of, that was an error, he ment to check plaque. Most people after they have a handful of plaques would just as soon get a check. First win or two, a plaque is nice. After that, unless it is a Sectional, Area or better, what do you do with them? Especially if you are one of the guys that wins 90% of the local matches that you shoot? You can quickly collect 24-52 plaques a year!

Still I would think that no prize or recognition is not a good thing. Most people love to hear their name called into the winners circle.

This is one reason to maintain classes and to award class wins. Think about it. NHRA has a class for everyone, the guy with his Dad's Nova doesn't compete against the AA Fuel Rails. Same as in USPSA, the guy with the Glock does'nt compete against the STI Open gun and the Pros (GM'S) are in a class by themselves, the D-class guys, even withthe same equipment are not competing against the GM's.

This is as it should be, unless we want to kill the sport.

My Opinion.

Jim

My point exactly...what do you do with a garage full of trophies? When I moved to Kerrville, I trashed three big boxes of the things...only things I kept were from the Natl's and World shoots...

[Ron Ankeny]

To say that heads up is the only way to shoot, and one shouldnt be proud of about a class win, regardless of what class it is, is the worst thing you can do for the sport. We all welcome new shooters, but then when they win C class we tell them it aint shit and not to talk until they win something bigger.

FWIW, I am not saying any such thing. Anyone who knows me can attest that my goal is to attract, encourage, and retain new shooters. Still, I sincerely believe it is a disservice to highly competent and accomplished shooters to tell them their win "ain't shit" while we reward mediocrity. To quote John Dunn, "Someone has to be the forum prick."

Edited January 26, 2006 by Ron Ankeny

[Ted Murphy]

First time I won money at a USPSA match I was pretty stunned. Didn't expect to ever do it.

Personally, I would rather see lower match fees than a cash pay out. My own personal beef; with the girlfriend coming shooting each weekend two matches @ 20.00 a head per sunday gets expensive over time. Two matches @ 10.00 or $15.00 would be better for me. Of course I could practice more and try to win, that would work as well. But the lower match fees would likely be more realistic.

I know that my situation is not the same as it is for others, but that is how I feel about it.

I have officiated a match where the competitor came up to me and said he had $350.00 riding on this stage (his last of the match) and I should go easy on him. I thought that was abit odd, that the money was his foremost priority, but guess that's why they make vanilla and chocolate.

If you are one of the shooters who does not value a lower class trophy, I am sorry you feel that way. There is nothing more rewarding for me than to hand out trophies at a match. You will see the odd competitor rather unimpressed at a 2nd place trophy, but for the majority of the shooters, you just handed them something they will treasure for a long time. A lot of the shooters at our state (IDPA) match might only shoot 1 or 2 majors a year, so that is very much appreciated. To that end, it is my favorite part of the job.

For two years I printed out certificates out of the class/division winners and sent them to ths shooters of our IDPA matches. People collected them in scrapbooks and stuff. It ended up being worth the time I spent on it. I should probably pick it up again.

Ted

Edited January 30, 2006 by Ted Murphy

[Castle]

George has it almost correct. In the Mid-Atlantic Section we pay Division winners $30.- as long as there are five entries in the division, Class winners within the division get paid $20.- as long as there are three shooters in the class/division. After eight shooters in class, we pay $12.- to the second in class.....

Interesting. I'm not aware of any club here in the PNW that does cash payouts. Is this something thats common on the east coast? Also, do you guys have the problem of Limited shooters deciding to download and shoot L10 so they can win the division?

This may be a slight side note, but I saw a chance to rant.

Of course, there is always the problem of Limited guys downloading to L10. L10 should have been what they are trying to do with Single Stack class now, minus all the goofy equipment restrictions. When they were introducing the L10 some 8 years ago, that is the exact back door they intended to leave open. They intentionally produced a loop hole for mediocre Limited shooters. They should have made the L10 class single stack only.

[Nik Habicht]

This may be a slight side note, but I saw a chance to rant.

Of course, there is always the problem of Limited guys downloading to L10. L10 should have been what they are trying to do with Single Stack class now, minus all the goofy equipment restrictions. When they were introducing the L10 some 8 years ago, that is the exact back door they intended to leave open. They intentionally produced a loop hole for mediocre Limited shooters. They should have made the L10 class single stack only.

No --- actually it's good that L10 isn't singlestack. It gives a whole bunch of autos that aren't competitive in either production of Limited a place to play --- in a ten round major power factor division......

[Sam]

Around these parts, we blew away the myth of "fat gun superiority" in L-10 a long time ago.