After Signing Score Sheet

[SmittyFL]

Here's a sorta hypothetical situation.

You are mid way through a match and the next stage you shoot first. All goes well, the run was average, no problems. You're loading mags and bs'ing with squad mates for a while. You then hear the time of another shooter on your squad. It was much faster than yours, no big deal except you've been outshooting this person for the whole match. After a few others shoot you start checking their times and they are all much faster 25+%. Then you're shooting buddy goes, you have a pretty good idea of his skills as you shoot together all the time and he also beats you by a considerable margin.

You are now certain your time is incorrect but because you went first you didn't realize it until the others shot.

You've already signed your scoresheet. Anything you can do?

After shooting a COF if you ask the RO if you may review the timer do they have to let you?

[Jake Di Vita]

Same exact thing happened to me at one of the Ohio sectionals a few years ago, cost me the match.

Nothing you can do once the score sheet has been signed...there is no tangible proof that anything wrong happened.

[XRe]

Once you've signed the sheet, you're done, unless there's some sort of error on the sheet that requires a reshoot (say, like, a missing time... happened to me once...). It's your job as shooter to make sure all that stuff makes sense, as part of verifying your score.

The RO is *supposed* to call out the time that's on the timer - so you should be able to hear that and double check it, just in case something changes in between. Once they've written your time down, I'd think it shouldn't be a problem to let you review your times (under supervision, so the competitor doesn't do anything untoward to the timer, of course). However - unless there's a major discrepancy in the times (like, the last "shot" recorded is a *long* time after the 2nd to the last shot), you're not going to get anywhere with it. And then - it would probably be considered a timer failure, and you'd have to reshoot.

There's always the possibility that you flat out got smoked, too... I sometimes have issues w/ pace if I have to shoot early on a stage, so I know how this can feel...

[SmittyFL]

Once you've signed the sheet, you're done, unless there's some sort of error on the sheet that requires a reshoot (say, like, a missing time... happened to me once...). It's your job as shooter to make sure all that stuff makes sense, as part of verifying your score.

I agree, but without knowing anything about the stage, nothing sounded out of place

The RO is *supposed* to call out the time that's on the timer - so you should be able to hear that and double check it, just in case something changes in between. Once they've written your time down, I'd think it shouldn't be a problem to let you review your times (under supervision, so the competitor doesn't do anything untoward to the timer, of course). However - unless there's a major discrepancy in the times (like, the last "shot" recorded is a *long* time after the 2nd to the last shot), you're not going to get anywhere with it. And then - it would probably be considered a timer failure, and you'd have to reshoot.

They did call it out, (in this hypothetical situation). I don't think it was written down wrong, I think the RO bumped the timer which would have resulted in a long last split. But I didn't check the timer, I didn't have any reason to at the time.

There's always the possibility that you flat out got smoked, too... I sometimes have issues w/ pace if I have to shoot early on a stage, so I know how this can feel...

Absolutely. That's why I didn't think anything about it for the first few times I heard. But after everyone on the squad, who I had been beating all day, smoked me, I thought something was up. But like Jake said, I didn't have any proof.

[shred]

Only if you can get the RO or an Arb committee to agree with you:

9.7.4 A score sheet signed by both a competitor and a Range Officer is conclusive evidence that the course of fire

has been completed, and that the time, scores and penalties recorded on the score sheet, are accurate and

uncontested. The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document and, with the exception of the

mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision, the score

sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Kind of the same thing happened to a friend of mine at a 3-gun match about 4 or 5 years ago. There was a rifle stage next to a pistol stage with shorter berm in between. The timer was picking up rifle shots, but not all the time.

He got the MD to talk to him about it, basicly, they told him there was nothing they could do.

I think they should have switched timers and gave him a reshoot. But then they'd have to reshoot everyone, wouldn't they? If it happened to one person, the argument could be made that it happened to more than one.

[wide45]

9.10.2 If, in the opionion of an Arbitration Committee, the time credited to a competitor for a course of fire is deemed to be unrealistic, the competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire (see Rule 9.7.4)

Definately grounds to file an Arb. but I doubt you would win unless the time was way off.

[AlamoShooter]

Intersting problem, And I can not be the only one that knows what my time is to + or- a second or so at the unload and show clear? even with it the small amount of IPSC shootsI have shot, I still know close to what my time is after I shoot, Like my score = I know if i have Ds or not. If I hear a Mike I know if they are just pulling my leg. On the steel I know to within .10 of a second...some of the time.

That would be a crule game for an RO to bump the timer. I dont even want to be in the same State if happens

[XRe]

They did call it out, (in this hypothetical situation). I don't think it was written down wrong, I think the RO bumped the timer which would have resulted in a long last split. But I didn't check the timer, I didn't have any reason to at the time.

Hypotetically speaking, how disparate were the times?? A couple of seconds, well... I don't know. 4 or 5 (for someone at your skill level, who didn't have any problems), and I'd wonder, too. 10 seconds?? Then I'm getting really suspicious there's something wrong with the timer....

Absolutely. That's why I didn't think anything about it for the first few times I heard. But after everyone on the squad, who I had been beating all day, smoked me, I thought something was up. But like Jake said, I didn't have any proof.

Yeah, that's a tough one. If you shoot, and everything feels right, and the time sounds right, it's really hard to say right there that you thought there was a problem - and proving it might be tough, as well. I've seen things happen where the RO puts the timer in a bad spot, and it gets smacked w/ the round coming out of the gun during ULASC, stuff like that - those happen pretty quickly after you're done shooting, and might be hard to gauge.

This is many times, unfortunately, one of those "rub of the green" issues - just part of the game. It's a shame we don't get printed copies of our times - but I'm afraid that would cause as many problems as it solves.

I had the reverse experience at the last match I shot. W/ a skinny L-10 gun, I shot the fastest time on a particular speed shoot (involving a mandatory reload, no less). I really wish I'd grabbed the box and reviewed it after the match when I found out that was the case - so that I could see exactly what I'd done (and if all the shots were *really* there).

[AlamoShooter]

I had the reverse experience at the last match I shot. W/ a skinny L-10 gun, I shot the fastest time on a particular speed shoot (involving a mandatory reload, no less). I really wish I'd grabbed the box and reviewed it after the match when I found out that was the case - so that I could see exactly what I'd done (and if all the shots were *really* there).

Oh I saw the speed !!!! it was fast and the time called was corect by my ears.

I was in the squad waiting to shoot. and the time in my head that i told Mike you had was to within .05 of what was called out by the RO.

You were Fast! ...Fast

Jamie

[ima45dv8]

I had the reverse experience at the last match I shot. W/ a skinny L-10 gun, I shot the fastest time on a particular speed shoot (involving a mandatory reload, no less). I really wish I'd grabbed the box and reviewed it after the match when I found out that was the case - so that I could see exactly what I'd done (and if all the shots were *really* there).

I had something along these lines occur on Sunday.

The RO was pretty sure she didn't pick up my last shot (or 2, or 3, or whatever) and I had to reshoot the stage. After talking to her I was agreeing it must have been an invalid time.

Cut about 2 seconds off of the second run.

[SmittyFL]

Dave - you pretty much nailed it on all counts.

I'll let you in on a secret, it wasn't a hypothetical situation

It was around 4 seconds on an 12 second stage. I went first and was 16ish, then I realized the other guys were coming out with 11's and 12's. I don't think the RO did anything intentional at all, I just think he accidentally bumped the timer. This happened almost a year ago, what brought it up again is I was RO'ing at a local match the other night and upon the unload command, the shooter's round bounced off my chest and hit the timer in my hand on the way to the ground. After I called the time, it hit me what might have happened. I backed through the timer and the last split was 3.89 or something. So it got me to thinking about the incident again.

I figured SOL was going to be the answer. But didn't know if there was some weird rule I didn't know about.

I usually try and figure my times ahead of time, especially at big matches and especially after this happened. But I'm not sure if I was 3 or 4 seconds off my guess on a 15, 20 or 25 second stage that I would think anything was up. Especially when odd things are required like carrying something and shooting strong hand as was the case in my situation.

Oh well, live and learn.

[Bigbadaboom]

Rule 9.6.1: "After the Range Officer has declared "Range is Clear" the competitor or their delegate will be allowed to accompany the official responsible for scoring to verify the scoring."

Your time is part of your "Score" therefore, as an R.O., I will always allow the Shooter to review the timer if they wish. As a Shooter (always at big matches and sometimes at local ones) I ask to review the timer and go back three shots to look for anomalies like .07 splits etc.. I have had a competitors ejected brass fly up and hit the timer on their last shot on several occasions causing a .07 or some other outrageous split time. I've also had the timer pick up the sound the slide slamming forward after "If clear, hammer down, Holster" and of me clipping it to my pocket etc.

[Crusher]

I've been burned a few times (mostly local matches) by bad timers (echos or picking up shots fired from adjacent ranges). As a result I ALLWAYS ask to see the timer display AND take the opportunity to check the # of shots recorded if I fire 18 and it records 18+ there is a problem. By the same if I fire 18 and it records 18- there is also a problem. Granted re-shoots are a problem for a number of reasons but the timer is there for a reason and if it screws up once it will happen again. Not much you can do after everything is written down on the scoresheet and you sign it.

[XRe]

By the same if I fire 18 and it records 18- there is also a problem.

On a standards or speed shoot, I'd expect every shot to be picked up. On a big field course, especially shooting mouse fart minor loads in Production, if the shooter gets out away from the RO slightly, the timer might not pick up those shots. The important part is that the timer pick up the *last* shot. So, if the shot count on the timer is less than the number you fired, it doesn't necessarily indicate an issue with the timer.

As an RO, I try to pay attention to the timer in terms of it getting bumped, or me knocking it, or whatever - and I take steps to protect it following the last shot (goes in my left hand for a right handed shooter, right hand for a left handed shooter - and straight behind their back w/ the display facing the guy w/ the clipboard). If it gets knocked after the last shot, I review and find the proper time - but this almost never happens...

Thanks for the confirmation, Jamie

[Rob Boudrie]

This is like asking "I noticed a M on my scoresheet. Although I did not look at what I signed, and I did not even look at the targets, I am very confident of my sight picture. Will the match staff take my confidence into account and adjust the scoresheet or issue a reshoot?"

Seems like a non-starter of an argument to me.

[XRe]

I think what Shannon is getting at is, is it OK to ask to look at the timer, once they've recorded your score - and, if you note what you think is a discrepancy, can you take that up w/ the match staff.

The question about what you can do after the sheet is signed is a non-starter, I agree.

[shred]

Now say the RO has one of the PACT or CED timers that has a string-storage function. Is it ok to go back in the data and find your run and verify it then?

Playing with the PACT XP, it looks like a RO might be able to store an entire match in there. That would be very cool for the data geeks-- splits and transitions for the whole match, the supersquad or whatever, but it raises a whole lot more issies-- is timer memory admissable for arbitration?

[L9X25]

Retracted to avoid thread drift...

Edited January 26, 2006 by L9X25

[schoonie]

To prevent the timer from picking up any other sounds, I hold it behind my back while the shooter is unloading and showing clear (gotta be sure he or she is really finished though!).

Having seen, and suffered for myself, what Shannon is refering to, I think it's best to ask to look at the timer to verify the time. As an RO I've got to be responsible to be sure that the last entry on the timer was only the last shot fired. I don't mind the request to show the shooter the timer, we're there to help, right?

[Nik Habicht]

As an RO, I try to always hold the timer so I can see the display. That way, it's easy to confirm that the timer is changing is changing with each shot in the final position, easy to note the final time, and you can tell early in a run if the timer's died on you.....

[edwin garcia]

I noticed in matches outside US, the RO will moved the timer behind/away from the shooter once shooter completes course and in the process of unloading. Then, he/she will show the displayed time to the shooter once gun's holstered, then finally announce the time to the crowd/competitors. It was strange to me but somehow I now get the practicality of it.