Middle Man Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 Another fine old American gun manufacturer is closing its US manufacturing facility. Winchester (USRAC) is shuttering their New Haven, CT plant in March 2006. It looks as if the Rifleman's Rifle, the venerable Model 70, will be no more. Certain Winchester nameplate firearms are currently and will continue to be built in Japan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 (edited) Many say that they should have closed in 1964 when they stopped producing their finest guns. The rights that FN has to the Winchester trademark expire next year anyway. Edited January 17, 2006 by fomeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 All this talk of fresh money-making young people taking upper management jobs must be true. They don't know crap about guns, history, American tradition, or anything important. If they can make a little more money by trashing everything good, no sweat. What these companies need is some old educated gun cranks, I mean really old, like 80 or 95. They are the only ones that know how to fix companies like Winchester. If you put upper management of Colt and Winchester in a room together, they could fiqure out a way to make America vanish into thin air. I'd bet they could even fill in the Grand Canyon if they put their heads together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 The problem Winchester has (which many makers have) is that what they made would not wear out in the owners lifetime. Treted properly, a 70 or 94 made during when one or the other Roosevelts was President is just as good today as back then. I knew something was up when I read that Winchester was offering the 1894 in .410 for god's sake. You only do that when you've sold every possible .30-30 that the market will take. Couple market saturation with high fixed costs (Connecticut taxes are like a feudal fiefdom) and union demands, and you can't stay in business for ever. If we're lucky (and the FN owners are smart) they'll move the essential tooling to SC, and in a few years when the supply has dried up and collectors are starting to bring prices up, re-introduce the 70 and 94. They can generate a big tax writeoff and depreciation schedule for the new tooling, and producre just enough to keep the market happy without again being in a saturated market. Meanwhile, the price tag on every 70 and 94 at every gun show in America just went up $50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G+16 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 If this is wrong forum please move: This just release on AP; New Haven Conn. The traditional Winchester rifles carried by pioneers, movie starts and wild west lawman will be discontinued in March, a Belgian manufacture said, confirming the end of an american icon the became know as the "Gun that won the West". Once the U.S. Repeating Arms plant closes on March 31, the only rifles carrying the famous winchester name will be modern High-End models produced the Belgium, Japan and Portugal. The older models including the famous Winchester Model 94 will be scrapped! "The name will continue, but not with those traditional products," said Robert Sauvage, a spokesman for the Hestal Group, the Belgian company that owns U.S. Repeating Arms and the right to the Winchester name. WELL their it go's again, a american company bought by a foriegn competor, even a well loved as browning is, will close american plants, displace american workers and upset the gun lovers of American. Can any of you that are more in the know confirm this? Remember what happen when smith&wes belong to a britian company? they sold out to bill clintion's gun rules remember? and the gun shops could bearly give them alway, then Cylinder and Slide (I Think) bought the back to the U.S. then everything return to normal, will this be the case with winchester? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middle Man Posted January 19, 2006 Author Share Posted January 19, 2006 See here--> http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=31522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Winchester's closing has nothing to do with employing union tradespeople! Heck, I don't even know if they are union there. But considering the cost of living in that neck of the woods, you couldn't survive there if you weren't. Well, at least not in the blue collar spectrum of work. Would you want your guns made by someone just scraping by on say $10/hr with no benefits (in that region)? And by no benefits, my main concern is no health coverage. Can you imagine trying to raise a family w/o health insurance nowadays? Additionally, I bet Winchester is facing the same skyrocketing healthcare costs that GM is facing. And GM is in quite a mess financially too. In my opinion, it all comes down to price engineering. "How can we drop our bottom line in order to maximize profits?" A sad day for guns and a sad day for America. Remember, if you pay your people peanuts, all you'll get is monkey #$%t ! Oh yeah, lets not thread drift this into a union bashing thing. Okay, people!? If you have anti-union comments, just PM to me. Chills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 (edited) Decided it was a bad post for "What I hate". Can't seem to find a delete post button mcb Edited January 19, 2006 by mcb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 When you sell (At The Time) a great product to KMart, and Walmart, You will eventually start making it cheaper and faster!!!. I'm sorry to see it happen, There are still some companys here in the US that stand by quality, Sure they have had their problems but some learned from it and are still in business. There are companys like ours that will fill the inexpensive firearm niche. Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 (edited) There are proabably more then a few reasons for this, but I think Patrick had the core of it in his hands. Most 94's still work. I bought one made in 1954 and it cost me about $200. These guns are great and if not abused they work and work and work and keep their value. As older generations pass on, the newer folks inherit them or buy them at estate sales, because given 2 working examples of the same gun at about the same price almost everyone will buy the older one for its history/character/etc. The model 70 may be well loved but it suffered an image problem for about 40 years, until it was recently redesigned. The 1300? They proabably sold one for every 10 870's or 5 Mossbergs. Quick poll .. How many people bought a new Winchester in the last 3 years? I'll bet not that many. You can't complain when a company retires a line of products which no one is buying, just because you can't imagine it not being on the shelves. Not much Burma Shave at my pharmacy. Edited January 21, 2006 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 Update, I have been doing a lot of shows in the last 3 weeks. The industry scuttle butt is: The company that owns Winchester ( FN I believe) made an offer to the union. It was a final offer! The union said no! and here we are. The were a lot of negotiations that have been going on for some time. Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middle Man Posted January 28, 2006 Author Share Posted January 28, 2006 FN does indeed hold the license to the Winchester name to build long guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Damn shame, But when the quality of the goods that have been coming out of USRAC, no wonder we see the New Haven plant being shut down. I have a rifle in my shop that has serious flaws that should bever have left the factory, and now I expect we have no recourse for repair. No fault of any individual worker/s, but clearly the problem was institutionalised. I hear that the state of Conneticut had put over $110 Million into USRAC in the last 10 or so years, with tax breaks, cheap loans etc, that clearly it was on life support long before this year. FN Herstal also put money in to keep it going. But the main problem with moving the equipment to another State is that it all needed to be upgraded and soon, FN just did not see the worth of retooling, and I suspect the Unions would not allow the workers to be shafted into a poor deal and could not see any benefit at the end. If the company could move the equipment I suspect the Unions there would not allow the workers there to be shafted either. We will see. The redesigned M70 was a bloody good idea, but it did not save them. The sales were not there. Yet Sako, who are much more expensive, sell many more rifles, and they had a huge recall???? The CZ Model 3 is an American made Winchester clone that sells real well, probably not as many as real M70's but they are selling. So the market has spoken. I feel for the workers and more importantly to the wider community of New Haven, 200+ jobs affect more than 2000 people in the end. Now we hear Remington is staring down the barrel of profit issues over the extreme costs in raw materials. Expect them to 'realign' prices, and they are one of (if not the) largest manufacturer of long guns in the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 CZ model 3 was also droped by CZ so I guess their sells on that model werent that great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I wonder if demographics aren't hurting the rifle guys as well. While IPSC shooters aren't a good representation of the general population, I'd guess half or more of our club now has no interest in hunting or rifles beyond 3-gun. When I first started 10 years ago the November/December matches got really small due to deer season, but now it's only a few shooters gone. I would say "and how many magnum/long/medium/short/super-short/super-short-magnum versions of the same dinged caliber do you need?", but then I count pistols with .355 barrels in my safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 What I hear. Winchesters will be produced in Japan. All winchester ammo will be no longer produced in the USA. Rifle ammo is already phased out with all others to follow. Within 4 months "Winchester, The Great Amercian Tradition" will be made offshore - every line and product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Sad day; my maternal grandfather worked in that plant and now it will be no more. Anyone know what country makes Winchester primers? They are the most popular primer in the USPSA. CZ-USA is now a stand-alone company from it's parent company overseas. CZ-USA also owns the American company, Dan Wesson. For now though, the CZ pistols and rifles are manufactured in the Czech Republic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 As unpopular as this will sound, We have done this to our selves! The price of what we sell in Europe would amaze you guys. Us as Americans, keep wanting cheaper and cheaper items! We export to over 30 countries! I know what the margins are outside of the US. Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 As unpopular as this will sound, We have done this to our selves! The price of what we sell in Europe would amaze you guys. Isn't there a tax on stuff not made in the EU? I remember some friends in slovenia telling me US guns were unaffordable because of such a tax. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38superman Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 (edited) I don't know what to make of this. Two years ago the Winchester catalog listed a new left handed version of the model 70 featherweight. I decided I couldn't live without it and began to scour the known universe for a dealer or distributor that had one. Nada. Got myself on a waiting list with a large distributor and nothing came of it. If you market and promote products that are not available in the market place, hard for me to feel bad about the going out of business sign. I tried my best to give them some money, but couldn't do it. Good thing I was wrong about the "couldn't live without it" thing. T Edited January 31, 2006 by tlshores Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Ted Murphy, Our Firearms are made in the Philippines, We pay 10-11 % tax, to bring them here to the US. Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 I would suspect that part of the price increases for raw materials comes from China's demand for steel. That shot prices up at least a year to a year and a half ago. I'd hate to say it, but the unions are going to be "working" themselves out of jobs, and eventually out of existence. Unless of course, the union officials at Winchester got a peek at their books. Maybe then they had good reason to stand their ground. I hope Winchester (Olin) ammo doesn't go out of business. They have one plant close to me in Alton, IL. I like Winchester brass and Winchester primers. I buy their stuff because I like being loyal to the local guys. A shame! Chills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 China is driving the cost of metals to record highs! Check the LME! Thats why brass, Bullets, Steel products are on the rise and have been for the last year. They don't care what the price is they need it and will buy it! You guys will see another 6-8% increase in ammo and componets by mid year! Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middle Man Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 ATK has already emailed a "Mid Year" pricelist replete with new increases. I hate price increases 2 and 3 times a year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Now you know what I'm going through! Guys call me and want pricing and I tell them it's only good for 1 week. I'm sure they think I'm messing with them, BUT that is the way it is. Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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