Dots, back up irons, and co nats

[RJH]

Idk if it is true but I read that Christian S had a dot break on him at nats. If that is correct, I wonder how much higher if any, he might have finished if he had some back up irons.  He had 3 mikes for the match, but idk if that was all on that stage, but 45 points is the difference in 6th and 3rd. 

[MHicks]

I was looking at discussions about the match and hadn't heard that but thought he might have placed higher. You may have seen this but Eric Grauffel who is known for his accuracy had two no penalty misses. Other then that all As and Cs, no Ds or misses, procedurals.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, MHicks said:

I was looking at discussions about the match and hadn't heard that but thought he might have placed higher. You may have seen this but Eric Grauffel who is known for his accuracy had two no penalty misses. Other then that all As and Cs, no Ds or misses, procedurals.

 

I saw that, he is pretty unbelievable. I don't think C Sailor was winning even if his dot worked perfect lol. 

 

And I am not positive his dot did fail, just something I read and if true, lead me to my pondering on back up sights. Maybe somebody who knows for sure will chime in in a bit

[crmcdm]

This is unknowable, because Grauffel can shift gears (as can Sailer) if needed.  Fair to say if Christian's Day 2 hadn't been impacted by equipment, it would have been closer.  Both amazing at the craft.  Someone wrote that Sailer wins if you throw out Day 2 - I haven't verified.

[MHicks]

 Both of them are among the top shooters in the world. One mistake of any kind can make the difference. I'll have too if there are some videos out there.

[RJH]

To clarify, I am not wondering if his dot doesn't break does he win the match, I am wondering if he had some back up irons does he pick up some places. Especially if he got his 3 misses on the stage that his dot broke on

[WFargo]

There is talk about his dot shifting.   And if that happens during a stage, I can't imagine that he would then make the conscious decision during the stage to look at back-up sights on his gun....  That stage would just be lost and he would switch to his backup gun, which he did.   And by the way, he does not have backup sights on his CO gun. Or, I should say, I never saw any in his youtube videos. 

What I read, was that he saw wide misses on steel and unexpected C's or something during a stage. 

But he tried to push on the last stage of the last day to try and win it, and that's where he shot the two mikes. 

He still came very close. If those two Mikes were C's....  who knows...   But yeah, that's the game.  "If's" don't score. 

Edited July 4 by WFargo

[Blackstone45]

5 hours ago, crmcdm said:

This is unknowable, because Grauffel can shift gears (as can Sailer) if needed.  Fair to say if Christian's Day 2 hadn't been impacted by equipment, it would have been closer.  Both amazing at the craft.  Someone wrote that Sailer wins if you throw out Day 2 - I haven't verified.

It just feels like Grauffel wasn't pushing at all because he didn't feel like he needed to. He didn't win a single stage. I think he had plenty in reserve.

[Blackstone45]

5 hours ago, MHicks said:

I was looking at discussions about the match and hadn't heard that but thought he might have placed higher. You may have seen this but Eric Grauffel who is known for his accuracy had two no penalty misses. Other then that all As and Cs, no Ds or misses, procedurals.

This was on that fixed time stage. Practically everyone had NPMs on that stage as you had to really push to get onto that last target.

[Towely]

I took out Sailors misses and replaced them with deltas (in the name of fairness) and he ended up in 4th place with 2151.6 points at 97.80%

 

I did the same thing again but replaced the mikes with alphas and he ended up in 3rd place with 2163.6 points at 98.34%

 

Just for funsies.

[WFargo]

Very interesting. 

And yes, it seems like Grauffel was simply doing the math, carefully calculating how the field was performing and adjusting his pace accordingly. 

 

@ Big Panda, weren't you an RO, or in the squad at a stage at a big match once, where Grauffel won the stage and he said it was his 90% or something. And then everybody convinced him to shoot the stage again, because the match was already over, and he did it seconds faster with again a great score! 

 

This guy is so good that his 90 to 95% is sufficient to win anything. He will calculate, and if he needs to push, he will. The fact that some shooters 'came close' is just because he "let's them"... 

[RJH]

4 hours ago, WFargo said:

There is talk about his dot shifting.   And if that happens during a stage, I can't imagine that he would then make the conscious decision during the stage to look at back-up sights on his gun....  That stage would just be lost and he would switch to his backup gun, which he did.   And by the way, he does not have backup sights on his CO gun. Or, I should say, I never saw any in his youtube videos. 

What I read, was that he saw wide misses on steel and unexpected C's or something during a stage. 

But he tried to push on the last stage of the last day to try and win it, and that's where he shot the two mikes. 

He still came very close. If those two Mikes were C's....  who knows...   But yeah, that's the game.  "If's" don't score. 

 

 

Thanks for the added info. When I read "dot broke" my brain went to no dot at all. A dot shift would definitely be a different can of worms than a dot that completely went out. 

[Blackstone45]

From his instagram story today, it looks like he's sticking with the Sig Romeos (at least for now)

[shred]

Romeo 3's work on slides... for a while. in my experience.   Then the windage starts moving every shot which is really annoying.

 

[Blackstone45]

26 minutes ago, shred said:

Romeo 3's work on slides... for a while. in my experience.   Then the windage starts moving every shot which is really annoying.

 

That sounds oddly similar to what Sailer experienced...

[togmaster]

3 hours ago, Blackstone45 said:

From his instagram story today, it looks like he's sticking with the Sig Romeos (at least for now)

Sticking with it until the check clears.

[Cuz]

5 hours ago, togmaster said:

Sticking with it until the check clears.

Or, rather, as long as the checks keep clearing...

 

[-JCN-]

8 hours ago, shred said:

Romeo 3's work on slides... for a while. in my experience.   Then the windage starts moving every shot which is really annoying.

 

That’s exactly why I got rid of my Romeo 3 Max optics. Really messed with my head. 
 

It’s how I came to purchase the Wheeler Laser to check my s#!t before matches. 

[Sawlsville]

13 hours ago, -JCN- said:

That’s exactly why I got rid of my Romeo 3 Max optics. Really messed with my head. 
 

It’s how I came to purchase the Wheeler Laser to check my s#!t before matches. 

-JCN- how does the Wheeler laser work for you?  Is it the one that just connects to the muzzle with a magnet?  Interesting idea of slapping it on for a pre match confidence check.  

[shred]

I have an old Sightmark I use.  Slap it on the muzzle and it's good for a rough check the zero is still there in the hotel room or on the range.

 

 

 

[-JCN-]

9 hours ago, Sawlsville said:

-JCN- how does the Wheeler laser work for you?  Is it the one that just connects to the muzzle with a magnet?  Interesting idea of slapping it on for a pre match confidence check.  

It works very well as long as the crown is clean(ish). 
 

It’s not perfectly zeroed but it’s the same amount off in relationship to the sights (usually about 6-10 MOA off but consistent). 
 

Also since ammo and zeroing is specific for load it won’t be perfect, but it’s consistent. 
 

I’ve shot matches with a new dot only zeroed with the laser and it works as well as a factory iron zero. 

[Sawlsville]

1 hour ago, -JCN- said:

It works very well as long as the crown is clean(ish). 
 

It’s not perfectly zeroed but it’s the same amount off in relationship to the sights (usually about 6-10 MOA off but consistent). 
 

Also since ammo and zeroing is specific for load it won’t be perfect, but it’s consistent. 
 

I’ve shot matches with a new dot only zeroed with the laser and it works as well as a factory iron zero. 

Thanks. I think I will give one a try!

[Neex]

Yeah, having backup irons is crucial, especially in high-stakes matches like nats. Those mikes can really hurt your score. It's tough to say how much higher he could've placed with backups, but 45 points is definitely a big gap in rankings. 

[Fishbreath]

On 7/4/2024 at 3:47 AM, Towely said:

I took out Sailors misses and replaced them with deltas (in the name of fairness) and he ended up in 4th place with 2151.6 points at 97.80%

 

I did the same thing again but replaced the mikes with alphas and he ended up in 3rd place with 2163.6 points at 98.34%

 

Just for funsies.

 

There's a time cost, too—Sailer told me that it was a windage shift as @shred suggested, and that he lost lots of time on day 2 hitting just on or just off of the left edge of poppers.

 

I also did the toss-day-2 thing, to see if it would plausibly have been close at the end. Sailer wins the day 1 plus day 3 match, but Grauffel won the day 3 stages, with Sailer second, even though Sailer had a working gun again. (All of this, I grant, is a "the Falcons were up 28-3 at halftime" approach to analysis. Incomplete scores don't tell a complete story.)

 

Given a working gun all three days for Sailer, my guess is he and Grauffel are neck and neck for the overall win at the end of the match. Grauffel definitely had another gear, but so did Sailer. I suspect his day 3 (several seconds faster than anyone else, but a bit sloppy) was a calculated gamble—it's hard to make up significant ground shooting the points-first day 1 strategy.

[shred]

Day 3 for the SS had most of the long shots in it too.