Dr_Z Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 Question. One of my friend told me that someone got DQed in this club match for pulling trigger (assuming testing DA trigger pull?) after the "load and make ready" command. Assuming that dude did not violate any muzzle safety rule, what else in the rule book could result in DQ in this case? Or its a misjudgment ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 It’s IDPA so it’s anyone’s guess! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Z Posted February 11 Author Share Posted February 11 Thats too bad. I mean if its a misuse of rule, at lease I know I would be safe next time I do this. otherwise, how do I decock my da gun without a decocker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) I’m dumber for doing so but I just read the IDPA rules. FYI there is far more difference between USPSA and IDPA than we are often led to believe. The last sentence under load and make ready says something like anything considered rehearsing is not permitted. I guess dry firing is rehearsing? Edited February 12 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
625 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 He should have not been disqualified but should have been given three seconds per infraction. If the RO is an ass he could have given him a procedure per trigger pull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
625 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 In IDPA you are not allowed to do a sight picture with your gun prior to firing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Z Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, 625 said: He should have not been disqualified but should have been given three seconds per infraction. If the RO is an ass he could have given him a procedure per trigger pull. I assume that decocking a DA gun before start by pulling the trigger is exempted from trigger infringement ? I recall that I have never been given a PE or finger warning for doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Z Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, Sarge said: I’m dumber for doing so but I just read the IDPA rules. FYI there is far more difference between USPSA and IDPA than we are often led to believe. The last sentence under load and make ready says something like anything considered rehearsing is not permitted. I guess dry firing is rehearsing? Yeah most of RO who I asked referred to this piece of rule. Not the finger cal, I see no grounds for DQ. Unless repeated offense despite warning, i.e. unsportsmanlike conduct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 There is a discussion about this on the IDPA FB group. Some people want to DQ for violating 2.6.x although this particular scenario is not addressed. Some want to PE for violating 2.12.2.1. Some don't think it's a problem. I don't think it's a problem but it's IDPA so I guess it is.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrel45 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 On 2/11/2024 at 8:30 PM, 625 said: In IDPA you are not allowed to do a sight picture with your gun prior to firing. I know nothing about IDPA, but you really can not take a sight picture when given make ready? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 When they first started IDPA was explicitly-anti USPSA, so anything "gamey" allowed in USPSA was pretty much by default not-allowed in IDPA, including sight pictures, walkthroughs, race holsters, comps, dots, hicaps, speed-reloads, short-shorts, trucker hats, etc... (not sure about those last two). Since then IDPA has become it's own thing rather than being defined by what it wasn't and made changes for the better. IDK if sight pictures are one of them though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zincwarrior Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, Squirrel45 said: I know nothing about IDPA, but you really can not take a sight picture when given make ready? No you cannot. Nor can you airgun. You do get a walkthrough when the SO is doing their course of fire and after, its just a group thing and the squad doesn't fart around for ten minutes. On the flipside, how often to you get to shout of a van? To the topic, I am surprised. If its an issue, the SO could say don't do that. i don't see where its a DQ type offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzdraw Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Rule 2.2.4.6 A discharge before the start signal. DQ penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 On 2/11/2024 at 7:14 PM, Sarge said: I’m dumber for doing so but I just read the IDPA rules. FYI there is far more difference between USPSA and IDPA than we are often led to believe. I enjoy both sports, and agree that there are more things I would change about IDPA rules than UPSA, but I don't think it is good to throw rocks from a glass house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 On 2/11/2024 at 4:59 PM, Dr_Z said: Or its a misjudgment ? Yep. DA/SA guns without a decocker starting with bullet in chamber and hammer down are perfectly fine. 19 hours ago, Squirrel45 said: I know nothing about IDPA, but you really can not take a sight picture when given make ready? You can point your gun down and verify dot is turned on or whatever , aiming at a target is considered to be a rehearsal and they don't like that. Goes back to some folks considering the game to being self defense training I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWhit Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 IPSC (est. 1976) does not allow this practice either; however, it is more well defined in the IPSC rule book: 8.7.1 (IPSC) Competitors are prohibited from taking a sight picture and/or dry firing prior to the Start Signal. Violation will result in a warning for the first occurrence and one procedural penalty for each subsequent occurrence in the same match. Competitors may, while pointing their firearm directly at the ground in front of them, adjust electronic sights. Just looking at the history of IDPA and its intent, 8.7.1 is probably what they were going for, but IDPA just worded it poorly in their rule book. As is often the case, a little diligence and clarity when producing IDPA rule books would reduce follow-on debates and AC interventions. However, it appears as though these conversations will remain necessary so that we can ultimately have an agreed upon ruleset, based on consolidated regional interpretations. Additionally, IPSC does not allow individual walkthroughs prior to the RO stage brief. I only present this to highlight the presumptive similarities between IPSC and IDPA and reinforce an assumption that IPDA may have intended 8.7.1 as the rule. 8.7.3 (IPSC) No person is permitted to enter or move through a course of fire without the prior approval of a Range Officer assigned to that course of fire, or the Range Master. Violations will incur a warning for the first offense but may be subject to the provisions of Section 10.6 for subsequent offenses. For the record, I used to dry fire at the ground as part of my LAMR sequence but after assessing the value -- making SOs very uncomfortable with an uncommon/questionable IPDA practice vs. minimal/no impact on stage performance -- I just stopped doing it. Recommendation to IDPA: If IPSC 8.7.1 is the intent, copy/paste or replace subsequent PEs for DQ, and update the IDPA rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 History note: IPSC 8.7.1 & 8.7.3 came into being after IDPA was established. 8.7.1 is the more recent as people were tending to elaborately-long LAMR antics and the powers-that-be thought that "wasn't IPSC". It took several iterations before it got to where it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWhit Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 1 hour ago, shred said: History note: IPSC 8.7.1 & 8.7.3 came into being after IDPA was established. 8.7.1 is the more recent as people were tending to elaborately-long LAMR antics and the powers-that-be thought that "wasn't IPSC". It took several iterations before it got to where it is now. Thanks, only intent there was to highlight that IPSC has been around for a while, not that the rule was written in 1976. But thanks for the clarification and explanation as to how IPSC ultimately arrived at their current position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddc Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 13 hours ago, Buzzdraw said: Rule 2.2.4.6 A discharge before the start signal. DQ penalty. The OP scenario has nothing to do with a discharge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzdraw Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 The more closely I try to re-read the IDPA RB 2024, the more difficulty I find regarding a penalty action for dry fire (in a safe direction) during LAMR. A discharge is a clear DQ. A sight picture would be a PE. Oh my!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Z Posted February 21 Author Share Posted February 21 On 2/14/2024 at 12:44 AM, Buzzdraw said: Rule 2.2.4.6 A discharge before the start signal. DQ penalty. discharge means round leaves barrel, pulling trigger on an empty gun is no discharge per my understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Z Posted February 21 Author Share Posted February 21 (edited) On 2/14/2024 at 4:34 PM, Buzzdraw said: The more closely I try to re-read the IDPA RB 2024, the more difficulty I find regarding a penalty action for dry fire (in a safe direction) during LAMR. A discharge is a clear DQ. A sight picture would be a PE. Oh my!!! yet nothing in IDPA Rule book specifically address the action of "pulling the trigger" after LAMR before the beep. Sounds like it depends on the context of the action. 1. pulling trigger while violating muzzle safety rule = DQ 2. pulling trigger while acquiring sight picture on targets = PE in the above scenarios, the action of pulling trigger has no relevance to the consequences, pulling trigger or not, the consequences are the same given the contexts. 3. pulling trigger to lower the hammer on a DA/SA gun with DA start = no penalty, totally allowed 4. pulling trigger while safely pointing the gun at the ground (the specific action in question) = ? Edited February 21 by Dr_Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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