327/627 and the .38 Super

[gnappi]

I stopped shooting my .40 and .38 super automatics at the range because picking up my not disposable brass among the piles of scrap 9's was a pain, and I wasn't fond of getting pelted by hot brass from the "I need to empty my gun as fast as I can" crowd

 

So I switched all of my shooting to revolvers but what to do with all of my loaded super and .40 ammo? Dust off my 610 and 327 / 627's.

 

The 610 and .40 was no issue but the moon clips and cylinders on the 327/627 were a problem .

 

First I found that even though my ammo all fit my ammo checker and my supers from Tanfo and 1911's none would drop in either of the S&W's and all needed to be re taper crimped to drop in the 327.  

 

Next, the five WC clip "fingers" were a bit too long (~8 thou) but it was not a very big issue with a Dremel to get them fitting into depression on the rear of my 327 cylinder. 

 

Since I couldn't find any more WC clips, I ordered three TK clips and the fingers needed twenty thou taken off each to fit the cylinder, and inserting brass into them is only possible with the vise grip. That 20 thou grinds off slowly  

 

Problems solved on the 327. The cylinders still need a bit of a reaming because the ammo needs a lot of wiggling to get seated. I'll never be able use it as any more than a range toy or pins as it is now. 

 

My 627-5 will not allow a single .38 super to drop in even without a moon clip that will easily in the 327. 

 

On a S&W site I was told that the 627-4 was billed as .357/.38 spec/.38 super but the 627-5 was sold as a .357 / .38 special only revolver. 

 

So, I want to send both cylinders in to have them reamed and I hope someone here who has had their 327/627 cylinders reamed and can advise me of a gunsmith who can do mine, hopefully by shipping the cylinders only? 

 

 

[Bill Sahlberg]

Reaming of your 627 cyinder is not necessary to shoot 38 Super 'IF' you size them properly with the EGW undersized die (-.0002) or use new Starline Brass.

 

I have Brownells 38 Super Full Moon Clips that work great with my Starline brass.

[Makicjf]

15 minutes ago, Bill Sahlberg said:

Reaming of your 627 cyinder is not necessary to shoot 38 Super 'IF' you size them properly with the EGW undersized die (-.0002) or use new Starline Brass.

 

I have Brownells 38 Super Full Moon Clips that work great with my Starline brass.

What is the process and do you have the specs on the die?

  I'd love to be able to load 38 super in my V-Comp for major pf.

  I'm a 38 super dumby.  Would 38 super comp brass be better for full power loads?  

  You've piqued my interest!

Jason

[RevolverJockey]

It does sound like maybe your cylinder could be out of spec. I loaded maybe 25,000 rounds for my 627-4 using Starline brass and Dillon dies and never had a round that wouldn’t chamber.

[Bill Sahlberg]

1 hour ago, Makicjf said:

What is the process and do you have the specs on the die?

  I'd love to be able to load 38 super in my V-Comp for major pf.

  I'm a 38 super dumby.  Would 38 super comp brass be better for full power loads?  

  You've piqued my interest!

Jason

Just buy the EGW unersized 38 Super die and re-size all your loaded ammo -or- buy new 38 Super Starline brass and load it.

 

Both fit in ALL my 627 cylinders and extract easily.

[Makicjf]

55 minutes ago, Bill Sahlberg said:

Just buy the EGW unersized 38 Super die and re-size all your loaded ammo -or- buy new 38 Super Starline brass and load it.

 

Both fit in ALL my 627 cylinders and extract easily.

Awesome.  If I can't find the Brownells moon clips, do standard 38 super/ 9mm fit a 627 cylinder?

Thanks!

Jason

[testosterone]

2 hours ago, Makicjf said:

I'm a 38 super dumby.  Would 38 super comp brass be better for full power loads?  

Better than what?

There is load data for making major across a whole spectrum of bullet weights and powders.   The king of such powders is 3n38 if your goal is gas volume.

If you just want "full power" then just goto 357 magnum of which there are reams of wildcat loads available that are 'safe'....

 

Sorry i misread, sc and super case volume are close enough that it doesnt matter, the main thing is sc is rimless, so more BB's in a 170mm mag...

Edited February 6 by testosterone

[gnappi]

As I said the -4 works the -5 will not.

[gargoil66]

OK:

 

I tried Bill's advice of using an undersized die for .38 Super and that will work except that the moon clips for the Super are too thick for the 627-5.  Cylinder won't close.  So I tried .38 Super Comp brass which is dimensionally smaller than standard .38 Super +P.  Problem was the moon clips that fit .38 Super are way too big for the Super Comp.  The Super Comp brass will fall out of the moon clip.

 

So I sent the cylinder of my V Comp to TK and they reamed it out for .38 Super.  Kind of a pisser because I scored a 625-4 and called TK to cancel about one day too late.  So now I have two revolvers chambered for Super.  The Super is bigger than .38 Special or its various cousins so when you shoot a .38 Spl in a Super chamber, the base of the brass bulges out to an extent that about half of them won't size down enough to easily go into a .38 Spl chamber anymore.

 

If you want your cylinder opened up to Super, do yourself a favor and send it to TK.  You will have it back in a week and it will be perfect.  Easiest and in the long run least expensive way of turning a .38 Spl into a .38 Super.

 

I think my big issue with .38 Super is the moon clips.  I have Starline and RP .38 Super brass and Starline .38 Super Comp brass.  Both the Starline and RP .38 Super seem to have a good number of pieces that are extremely hard to seat into the TK moon clips I have.  And I have checked the moon clips and found them to be just fine in size.  Its the brass that isn't as uniform as I would have expected.

 

GG

[gnappi]

I can tell you that the WC branded ( 8 sided center hole) work after just trimning the  fingers but the S&W branded ones with the round center hole (TK Brand stamped) needed 3x the metal taken off the fingers AND the cases ( all headstamps) can not be pushed on by hand.

[Ice36]

Here is TK custom size chart for different brass, and what size moon clip need by brass.

TK Custom FAQ's | How to Use Moon Clips for Revolvers - TK Custom | TK Custom Store

[DukeSoprano]

I have a 627 in 38 Super and TK  Smith & Wesson 929 9mm OEM Moon Clips STD B/S, work perfectly with almost all brands of brass.

 

I have a totes full of brass and don't even sort it, sometimes I get a round that is too loose and I just toss into a box to shoot out of my 1911s

[Bill Sahlberg]

On 2/6/2024 at 4:02 PM, gargoil66 said:

OK:

 

I tried Bill's advice of using an undersized die for .38 Super and that will work except that the moon clips for the Super are too thick for the 627-5.  Cylinder won't close.  So I tried .38 Super Comp brass which is dimensionally smaller than standard .38 Super +P.  Problem was the moon clips that fit .38 Super are way too big for the Super Comp.  The Super Comp brass will fall out of the moon clip.

 

So I sent the cylinder of my V Comp to TK and they reamed it out for .38 Super.  Kind of a pisser because I scored a 625-4 and called TK to cancel about one day too late.  So now I have two revolvers chambered for Super.  The Super is bigger than .38 Special or its various cousins so when you shoot a .38 Spl in a Super chamber, the base of the brass bulges out to an extent that about half of them won't size down enough to easily go into a .38 Spl chamber anymore.

 

If you want your cylinder opened up to Super, do yourself a favor and send it to TK.  You will have it back in a week and it will be perfect.  Easiest and in the long run least expensive way of turning a .38 Spl into a .38 Super.

 

I think my big issue with .38 Super is the moon clips.  I have Starline and RP .38 Super brass and Starline .38 Super Comp brass.  Both the Starline and RP .38 Super seem to have a good number of pieces that are extremely hard to seat into the TK moon clips I have.  And I have checked the moon clips and found them to be just fine in size.  Its the brass that isn't as uniform as I would have expected.

 

GG

My Brownell's 38 Super full moon clips have fit all 5 of my 627s and cylinder closes as it should. Factory Starline 38 Super brass drops in with room to spare and ejects easily.

 

Reloads must use the undersized 38 Super die that George makes at EGW. (Been doing this since 1997) However, I mainly shoot 38 Colt Short (with 3/4" of freebore) because of no advantage to shooting Major.

[Bill Sahlberg]

23 hours ago, DukeSoprano said:

I have a 627 in 38 Super and TK  Smith & Wesson 929 9mm OEM Moon Clips STD B/S, work perfectly with almost all brands of brass.

 

I have a totes full of brass and don't even sort it, sometimes I get a round that is too loose and I just toss into a box to shoot out of my 1911s

I always get my own brass back since its attached to the full moon clips. I have reloaded the 38 Colt short 25+ times with a small amount of split cases...

[Bill Sahlberg]

On 2/6/2024 at 2:46 PM, Makicjf said:

Awesome.  If I can't find the Brownells moon clips, do standard 38 super/ 9mm fit a 627 cylinder?

Thanks!

Jason

Here is the parts number from Brownell's. I bought these a few years ago...

[gargoil66]

Jason:

 

I did size down the brass and they did fit the cylinder.  Barely any headspace left so I tried a couple of brands of .38 Super and the .38 Super Competition brass.  All fit the cylinder, no problem.  The .38 Super Comp brass was the closest but it fell out of every 9mm moon clip I was able to get.  The standard Super with every moon clip I was able to find was too thick.

 

Just looked at Brownells and their moons are no longer available.  I do believe I did buy some and try them.  Too thick.

 

It is worth the search for the right moon clip so if I were you, I would ask TK to send you a sample of their 9mm moon clips and try them.  Who knows, you may get lucky and find one that works like Bill's do.  Just that nothing worked for me.  At least not in two each 627 - 5's, a V Comp and a TRR-8.

 

GG

 

 

[ysrracer]

13 hours ago, Bill Sahlberg said:

I always get my own brass back since its attached to the full moon clips. I have reloaded the 38 Colt short 25+ times with a small amount of split cases...

 

I find that I need to ream the primer pockets every 15 loadings or so. Otherwise I get crushed primers when loading.

 

[Makicjf]

3 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

Jason:

 

I did size down the brass and they did fit the cylinder.  Barely any headspace left so I tried a couple of brands of .38 Super and the .38 Super Competition brass.  All fit the cylinder, no problem.  The .38 Super Comp brass was the closest but it fell out of every 9mm moon clip I was able to get.  The standard Super with every moon clip I was able to find was too thick.

 

Just looked at Brownells and their moons are no longer available.  I do believe I did buy some and try them.  Too thick.

 

It is worth the search for the right moon clip so if I were you, I would ask TK to send you a sample of their 9mm moon clips and try them.  Who knows, you may get lucky and find one that works like Bill's do.  Just that nothing worked for me.  At least not in two each 627 - 5's, a V Comp and a TRR-8.

 

GG

 

 

Thanks for the insight.  In your above post, you advised just sending it out to TK.

   If it's reamed, do the "standard" 38 super/9mm clips fit the cylinder?

   I've embarked on a fools errand of a short case major pf open load using 38 Super data.  I've found what works, but I'm roll crimping 38 Short Colt brass at an oal of 1.275.  I'm fearful of rapid case mouth fracturing.  38 Super/ 38 super comp brass would be a standard taper crimp which would avoid that problem.

  Plus, I'm just curious about the  38 super caliber.

Thanks!

Jason

[shred]

Somebody made moon clips for .38 Supercomp (Starline) specifically.  I've got a few from decades ago in the Revo tub (not coincidentally, about the last time I shot Revo in a match)

 

[Makicjf]

9 minutes ago, shred said:

Somebody made moon clips for .38 Supercomp (Starline) specifically.  I've got a few from decades ago in the Revo tub (not coincidentally, about the last time I shot Revo in a match)

 

I bet it's these!

[gargoil66]

22 minutes ago, Makicjf said:

Thanks for the insight.  In your above post, you advised just sending it out to TK.

   If it's reamed, do the "standard" 38 super/9mm clips fit the cylinder?

   I've embarked on a fools errand of a short case major pf open load using 38 Super data.  I've found what works, but I'm roll crimping 38 Short Colt brass at an oal of 1.275.  I'm fearful of rapid case mouth fracturing.  38 Super/ 38 super comp brass would be a standard taper crimp which would avoid that problem.

  Plus, I'm just curious about the  38 super caliber.

Thanks!

Jason

Jason:

 

The cylinder TK reamed out to .38 Super has taken every 9mm moon clip that themselves would take my RP .38 Super and Starline Super + P brass.  Don't bother with the .38 Super Competition brass.  It is too small to fit securely in any metal 9mm moon clip I tried.  Eli informed me that I needed to try as many different 9mm moon clips as I could find to figure out which one worked the best with my brass.  He sent me a packet with one each of his 9mm moon clips to try. Pretty squared away IMO.

 

You can always measure your revolver for headspace and then add the rim thickness of a .38 Super +P (.050) and the rim thickness of 9mm moon clips .035.  My measuring tools are crude at best but I got about .070 Headspace for my .627-5 and .085 for the rim and moon clip thickness.  Insufficient headspace on the revolver.

 

And the brass was sized down with the undersized sizing die.  Even cammed over. 

 

I will say that it was extremely close but I had to use force to close the cylinder.  I figure if I could find a 9mm moon that was .025 that it would have worked as long as I kept things very clean.  I mean it would have been very close to zero headspace but would have worked.

 

I am happy with the cylinder TK reamed out.  Works really well and the .38 Super is a very versatile cartridge.

 

Just measure your own revolver first.  Could well be that yours will work just like Bill's.

 

GG

 

 

 

 

 

[gargoil66]

19 minutes ago, shred said:

Somebody made moon clips for .38 Supercomp (Starline) specifically.  I've got a few from decades ago in the Revo tub (not coincidentally, about the last time I shot Revo in a match)

 

Shred:

 

I am not wondering if going from .38 ACP through what  ever generation .38 Super it is I am using that the cartridge dimensions haven't changed dramatically.

 

Oh yes, correction on the nylon moons that you can load and unload by hand.  They do fit the standard Super brass but are too thick so once again insufficient headspace.  They work perfectly with Super Comp brass which means the Super Comp brass has a thinner rim.  

 

No big deal for me anymore.  Got stuff that works now.

 

GG

[shred]

Absolutely the specs have changed over the years.  Originally .38 Super headspaced on the rim so the extractor groove was an afterthought.  Later on as Hornady and Starline started making rimless .38 Super (38 TJ and Supercomp, respectively) they started changing the extractor grooves.  Now that Starline has picked up 38 TJ, later generations of Supercomp have larger extractor grooves much closer to that of TJ as well, so that varies some too.  Since there's no SAAMI spec for either, they can do pretty much whatever they want.

 

The 38 SC moons I have look to be lasered or EDMed out.  

 

[ysrracer]

Interesting reading, but you guys are chasing your tail. .38 Short Colt or 9mm is effortless.

[Vic]

From all the reading on these types of threads, it looks like even 9mm has its problems, from bullet creep to accuracy. Not sure why anyone with a 627 would want to piss with anything else but the 38 short colt? easy peasy.