SCSA - Limited Optics

[Hoops]

43 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Did you happen to ask them why they're opposed to shooting open with those guns? Have the same discussion we're having here. Point out the similarities in the divisions and the times people shoot. 

 

People always want to shoot their new gun, and they can already. We just need to decide if there should be another division for it.

 

To me SC divisions seem really bloated, especially considering most people seem to be shooting the rimfire optic divisions anyway. Do you really need more center fire divisions? 

BTW….was this same question asked of USPSA shooters?  Just shoot open in USPSA matches?  I’m no longer shooting USPSA….been a while so out of that loop.

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, Hoops said:

BTW….was this same question asked of USPSA shooters?  Just shoot open in USPSA matches?  I’m no longer shooting USPSA….been a while so out of that loop.

 

It was yeah, you can search here tons of debate on the subject. There still debate as to whether or not it should just be lumped into CO the two divisions being so similar on the ground. 

 

There are some big differences in USPSA and SC. The biggest is Open get's major scoring, so the guys showing up with staccato's really had no chance to be competitive. SC doesn't have that problem. Next is probably that we take multiple shots on each target. When doing this the comp is going to be a bigger help, and so will the frame mounted optic. Since every shot in SC is followed by a transition I don't think it really matters if the dot lifts in recoil due to the lack of the comp. And since your eyes should snap to the next target you wont notice the dot leaving the window as the slide cycles.

 

Then looking at SC results from the WSSC there was almost no difference in the winning time for CO and Open, so it's likely that adding LO will just mean 3 divisions with almost the exact same time. While in USPSA it's still fairly rare for a CO guy to hang with a open shooter of similar skill. 

 

Make sense?

 

 

Edit...in fact you can go back to when CO was first being discussed and find lots of people saying they should just shoot Open. In fact I probably said it at the time. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Racinready300ex

[Hoops]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

It was yeah, you can search here tons of debate on the subject. There still debate as to whether or not it should just be lumped into CO the two divisions being so similar on the ground. 

 

There are some big differences in USPSA and SC. The biggest is Open get's major scoring, so the guys showing up with staccato's really had no chance to be competitive. SC doesn't have that problem. Next is probably that we take multiple shots on each target. When doing this the comp is going to be a bigger help, and so will the frame mounted optic. Since every shot in SC is followed by a transition I don't think it really matters if the dot lifts in recoil due to the lack of the comp. And since your eyes should snap to the next target you wont notice the dot leaving the window as the slide cycles.

 

Then looking at SC results from the WSSC there was almost no difference in the winning time for CO and Open, so it's likely that adding LO will just mean 3 divisions with almost the exact same time. While in USPSA it's still fairly rare for a CO guy to hang with a open shooter of similar skill. 

 

Make sense?

Yea it does.  When I shot my STI Edge 9mm it was A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want so I understand that part.

 

I’ll ask the USPSA guys their thoughts on shooting LO in SC open.

 

thanks

[Hoops]

What the hell happened to the last text?

[Hoops]

6 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

It was yeah, you can search here tons of debate on the subject. There still debate as to whether or not it should just be lumped into CO the two divisions being so similar on the ground. 

 

There are some big differences in USPSA and SC. The biggest is Open get's major scoring, so the guys showing up with staccato's really had no chance to be competitive. SC doesn't have that problem. Next is probably that we take multiple shots on each target. When doing this the comp is going to be a bigger help, and so will the frame mounted optic. Since every shot in SC is followed by a transition I don't think it really matters if the dot lifts in recoil due to the lack of the comp. And since your eyes should snap to the next target you wont notice the dot leaving the window as the slide cycles.

 

Then looking at SC results from the WSSC there was almost no difference in the winning time for CO and Open, so it's likely that adding LO will just mean 3 divisions with almost the exact same time. While in USPSA it's still fairly rare for a CO guy to hang with a open shooter of similar skill. 

 

Make sense?

Yes it made sense.  I shot my STI Edge 9mm minor.

 

I’ll ask the uspsa guys about shooting their LO in Open SC

 

That previous text was some mixed up stuff.  

[Hoops]

Just now, Hoops said:

Yes it made sense.  I shot my STI Edge 9mm minor.

 

I’ll ask the uspsa guys about shooting their LO in Open SC

 

That previous text was some mixed up stuff.  

Oops, sorry for language.  Apologize 

[Hoops]

Brain freeze from that cray bunch of words.  
 

hope Moderators don’t nail me.  Totally apologize for using curse word.  I’m always super careful about that.

[zzt]

21 minutes ago, Hoops said:

I’ll ask the uspsa guys about shooting their LO in Open SC

 

If they shoot both they will tell you there is a big difference.  There is no functional difference between LO and Open in SCSA.  Big dif in USPSA.

 

I built a dedicated 1911 Open gun for SCSA.  Before that, I put a dot on my Limited gun and shot it in Open.  Even with a dedicated Open load, it took quite a while before I made any new personal bests, with the 1911.   Now I just shoot factory or reloads at 131 PF.  Zero difference in times.

 

I can see CO being very slightly slower than Open, only because of the DA first pull.  That being said, many CO shooters beat Open shooters in USPSA.  So, maybe the folks calling for Centerfire Optics and Centerfire Irons are on to something.

[Racinready300ex]

49 minutes ago, Hoops said:

What the hell happened to the last text?

 

You didn't do anything wrong there. If you try to type Limited M*nor you get A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want.

 

2 minutes ago, zzt said:

I built a dedicated 1911 Open gun for SCSA.  Before that, I put a dot on my Limited gun and shot it in Open.  Even with a dedicated Open load, it took quite a while before I made any new personal bests, with the 1911.   Now I just shoot factory or reloads at 131 PF.  Zero difference in times.

 

 

Those are the things that you'll do, then you'll wonder did the load help or did all the work I put in really just make me better. I'd say you getting the same results with factory ammo answers the question for you.

 

3 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

I can see CO being very slightly slower than Open, only because of the DA first pull.  

 

Have you played with the modern striker guns tuned up? My canik breaks at about 2 lbs and it's still got a 6 lbs striker spring that will light anything. I have a lighter striker spring that I could use but never saw the point. I imagine you could get a sub 2 lbs pull these days with federal primers if you wanted too. 

[Hoops]

@Racinready300ex

@zzt

 

Yeah, that text kinda threw me

 

ok, just to refresh.  I have my STI Steelmaster with Brazos mount and Sig Romeo3XL so it eats 100 gr loads.  No need for me to shoot LO.

 

I did reach out to one 25 year continuous USPSA GM / 3 divisions who just finished his LO build.  He also regularly shoots our monthly SC matches.  He would not shoot his LO in SC Open due to slide mount.

 

I reached out to a fellow SC shooter who said if given a choice he would not shoot open ….again….slide mounted.

 

Im a bit over my skies here so it would be interesting if anyone else would jump in on this question.

 

This thread getting a lot of views so maybe more people will comment.

[Racinready300ex]

17 minutes ago, Hoops said:

@Racinready300ex

@zzt

 

Yeah, that text kinda threw me

 

ok, just to refresh.  I have my STI Steelmaster with Brazos mount and Sig Romeo3XL so it eats 100 gr loads.  No need for me to shoot LO.

 

I did reach out to one 25 year continuous USPSA GM / 3 divisions who just finished his LO build.  He also regularly shoots our monthly SC matches.  He would not shoot his LO in SC Open due to slide mount.

 

I reached out to a fellow SC shooter who said if given a choice he would not shoot open ….again….slide mounted.

 

Im a bit over my skies here so it would be interesting if anyone else would jump in on this question.

 

This thread getting a lot of views so maybe more people will comment.

 

I mean, if I have a open gun I'd shoot that in open vs a LO gun.  And if LO was a thing I'd probably shoot the LO gun in LO instead of open.....Just like anyone I want to win and would do everything I can to give myself the best chance. Although I'm crazy enough to go shoot CO/LO/Open all with the same gun instead of switching. 

 

As a sport/org we really need to decide the intent of the divisions. Is it give me more bites at the apple? Or is it to separate out different equipment that may have unique advantages or disadvantages. And if that's it what constitutes a real vs perceived advantage. 

 

Both games have this problem, the last few years with the changes to the rules and the addition of 3 divisions in USPSA it seems like we're just throwing ideas at the wall and seeing what happens. I don't feel like we have a direction, and soon we may have more divisions then there are genders. 

 

 

 

[old558]

2 hours ago, zzt said:

 

If they shoot both they will tell you there is a big difference.  There is no functional difference between LO and Open in SCSA.  Big dif in USPSA.

 

I built a dedicated 1911 Open gun for SCSA.  Before that, I put a dot on my Limited gun and shot it in Open.  Even with a dedicated Open load, it took quite a while before I made any new personal bests, with the 1911.   Now I just shoot factory or reloads at 131 PF.  Zero difference in times.

 

I can see CO being very slightly slower than Open, only because of the DA first pull.  That being said, many CO shooters beat Open shooters in USPSA.  So, maybe the folks calling for Centerfire Optics and Centerfire Irons are on to something.

Everyone keeps saying Carry optics is only slightly slower than open but if this is true it must be only for the GM,s. I looked at SC peak times and there is a 10 second  difference. Open = 84 seconds, Carry Optics 94 seconds. That's a big difference in SC.

[Squirrel45]

Carry optics is taking a pretty good time hit next year. Open is staying the same.

[old558]

7 minutes ago, Squirrel45 said:

Carry optics is taking a pretty good time hit next year. Open is staying the same.

Looks like Carry Optics will be 92.5 sec and Open will be 83.5 sec. so still 9 sec.

[zzt]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Have you played with the modern striker guns tuned up? My canik breaks at about 2 lbs and it's still got a 6 lbs striker spring that will light anything. I have a lighter striker spring that I could use but never saw the point. I imagine you could get a sub 2 lbs pull these days with federal primers if you wanted too. 

 

Yes.  Mostly tricked out CZs with trigger jobs and reduced reach kits.  I'm a Single Action guy.  The long first pull is distracting.  I also shot a friends tricked out Glock.  Needs Federal primers to light.  Same deal, long first pull.

 

After the first shot, no difference.  Same as a good SA trigger.  Same time too.

 

BTW, I am not allowed to shoot Open 9 major at any of the steel clubs I shoot at.  Shooting major would improve my times.  I shoot boatloads of it.  Minor feels weird.

[GKB]

Here is the comparison of CO and OPEN for 2023 and 2024.

 

Abb	Stage
SC-101	Five to Go
SC-102	Showdown
SC-103	Smoke & Hope
SC-104	Outer Limits
SC-105	Accelerator
SC-106	Pendulum
SC-107	Speed Option
SC-108	Roundabout

 

 

[old558]

4 minutes ago, GKB said:

Here is the comparison of CO and OPEN for 2023 and 2024.

 

Abb	Stage
SC-101	Five to Go
SC-102	Showdown
SC-103	Smoke & Hope
SC-104	Outer Limits
SC-105	Accelerator
SC-106	Pendulum
SC-107	Speed Option
SC-108	Roundabout

 

 

Very nice thank you

[zzt]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Those are the things that you'll do, then you'll wonder did the load help or did all the work I put in really just make me better. I'd say you getting the same results with factory ammo answers the question for you.

 

Yup.  A little more recoil and muzzle rise, but it doesn't matter for SCSA.  As I've said previously, the muzzle is back down well before you reach the next target.  Factory is cheaper than using gobs of 3N38 for a 'real' Open minor load.

[zzt]

11 minutes ago, GKB said:

Here is the comparison of CO and OPEN for 2023 and 2024.

 

Abb	Stage
SC-101	Five to Go
SC-102	Showdown
SC-103	Smoke & Hope
SC-104	Outer Limits
SC-105	Accelerator
SC-106	Pendulum
SC-107	Speed Option
SC-108	Roundabout

 

 

 

I don't get that.  Huge differences, especially in the c, b and a classes.   The COs I shoot with are FAST.

[ZackJones]

Disclaimer: I just skimmed so I'm sure I've missed something. But here's my take on things I've skimmed:

 

1 - CO - Getting adjusted for the first time because we had sufficient data to make good adjustments. 

2 - LO - Back in January 2023 my recommendation was not to add LO to SCSA and to let us see how it's doing on the handgun side first. From what I've seen it's actually doing well. What I haven't see is any good data on what people are shooting. Are they shooting new guns or just using their current CO gun? I believe HQ is trying to collect some of that data. 

3 - Adding a new division may sound trivial at first but it's not. We would need to collect good stage times to do an good analysis for Peak Stage Times. I didn't do a good enough job for some of the low read divisions which is why we are top heavy with GM's in them. The good thing is we have had some GM's that are no longer shooting at that level request classification downgrade and I've approved every one so far. 

4 - A "Stage Design Contest" is on the agenda for this month. Essentially it'll be to discuss the proposal for 8 new SCSA stages along  with the rules and provisions for additional stages. This will be a long term project if we go forward with it. The reader's digest version is this - Take 5 to Go and design a new stage using the same plates that we use now on 5 To Go. Make it fit in a rectangle of X by Y dimensions. Repeat this for the other 7 stages. Submit your proposed stages, membership votes on candidates. We adopt as provisional stages to gather PST data. Once approved and we have PST's for them they will count towards classification. 

5 - LO part 2 - Ultimately it's up to the BoD to determine if we add LO as a provisional division for SCSA. I have had some discussions as I've worked matches on both coasts about LO. The feedback I have received (We all know others may have received other feedback but from my own personal experience) I usually ask two or three questions (1) If we added it would you shoot it? Some yes, some no, some not until I could earn a classification. (2) Would you shoot it with your current CO setup or buy a new gun? Vast majority is use current CO setup. Others have said they already have LO gun and would shoot that and one or two say they are planning to buy one and are already classified in Open and don't want to shoot it there.  Then I ask this - If we added LO which division would you eliminate to keep us at 13 divisions? The typical answer is None! Just add LO.

6 - Separate SCSA RO track - I think we'll see that but like everything it's gonna take time. 

 

[Hoops]

@ZackJones thanks for the detailed response.  I’m going to reread it later as there is a lot there.

 

thanks

[Squirrel45]

Thanks Zach that's a good to do list I really hope that some of them pass. I'm bias to the new stage proposal

[Gregg K]

@ZackJones In reference to the new stages proposal, is it in the plan to eliminate any current stages or would we have a pool of 16 stages to choose from?

Thanks

[Racinready300ex]

13 hours ago, ZackJones said:

 

5 - LO part 2 - Ultimately it's up to the BoD to determine if we add LO as a provisional division for SCSA. I have had some discussions as I've worked matches on both coasts about LO. The feedback I have received (We all know others may have received other feedback but from my own personal experience) I usually ask two or three questions (1) If we added it would you shoot it? Some yes, some no, some not until I could earn a classification. (2) Would you shoot it with your current CO setup or buy a new gun? Vast majority is use current CO setup. Others have said they already have LO gun and would shoot that and one or two say they are planning to buy one and are already classified in Open and don't want to shoot it there.  Then I ask this - If we added LO which division would you eliminate to keep us at 13 divisions? The typical answer is None! Just add LO.

 

 

 

In my mind that tells the story. Most would just use the gun they already have that's legal in another division. That alone tells me the new division isn't different enough to be justified.

 

As it is, I could show up to a SC match with my Rival. Shoot Open, LO and CO with it without changing anything. Then go to the safe table and remove the dot and put the rear sight back on, and go shoot Prod and limited. All with exactly the same gun and setup and I'd probably be more competitive in each vs switching to 5 different guns even though they might be "optimized" for the division. 

 

In theory I could do the same thing in uspsa, but with minor scoring I'd be at a significant disadvantage shooting open and limited. 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

15 hours ago, zzt said:

 

Yes.  Mostly tricked out CZs with trigger jobs and reduced reach kits.  I'm a Single Action guy.  The long first pull is distracting.  I also shot a friends tricked out Glock.  Needs Federal primers to light.  Same deal, long first pull.

 

After the first shot, no difference.  Same as a good SA trigger.  Same time too.

 

BTW, I am not allowed to shoot Open 9 major at any of the steel clubs I shoot at.  Shooting major would improve my times.  I shoot boatloads of it.  Minor feels weird.

 

I meant striker guns, not DA/SA CZ's etc.  My canik is basically a SAO gun with a 2 lbs pull and super short reset. I changed 2 springs and the trigger shoe. No polishing and I didn't go crazy with the springs so it'll light any normal pistol primer. 

 

I'm honestly torn between shooting the Canik vs a 2011 in USPSA LO. I like the 2011 and shoot it really well. I have tons of rounds through them over the years. But that canik is cheap low maintenance, low like I haven't cleaned it since I bought it low. I think it's more accurate than my 2011's too. It really just comes down to which one do I want to shoot.