SCSA - Limited Optics

[Hoops]

If you want to know who actually shot the best, do their actual time as a percentage of their division’s Peak Time.  Yes?  Practiscore could do this too.  Data is their.

[jrdoran]

3 hours ago, Hoops said:

If you want to know who actually shot the best, do their actual time as a percentage of their division’s Peak Time.  Yes?  Practiscore could do this too.  Data is their.

 

For the matches I run, I email the participants this exact assessment ( sort of a handicap based on division ) ;  I also wrote s/w which pulls in from any match in PS and computes the same.   Interesting when comparing worlds, area matches, etc

 

[Hoops]

19 minutes ago, jrdoran said:

 

For the matches I run, I email the participants this exact assessment ( sort of a handicap based on division ) ;  I also wrote s/w which pulls in from any match in PS and computes the same.   Interesting when comparing worlds, area matches, etc

 

Exactly !

 

I have seen this before.  
 

I am going to start another broader topic to get out of Limited Optics.  

[Joe4d]

7 hours ago, Hoops said:

When we scored by paper, results were by division.  
 

I think the advancement of tablets and Practiscore has placed too much on the Combined scores…..and at 72 I’m a RF shooter about 90% of the time.  I would highly recommend Practiscore delete the Combined column….it’s worthless in my opinion and puts a false sense on winning.

 

Hey, anyone with Practiscore reading this?

disagree, strongly.. I shoot ICORE and SC that might only have 20 shooters,,, with all the divisions ? combined is the only meaningful result.

 

[Hoops]

44 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

disagree, strongly.. I shoot ICORE and SC that might only have 20 shooters,,, with all the divisions ? combined is the only meaningful result.

 

Although drifting from LO’s, I’m curious what purpose is served to show RFRO as 1st (which I usually shoot with my pistol) vs say Revolver at 10th?  How could this be the only meaningful result?  

[Joe4d]

6 minutes ago, Hoops said:

Although drifting from LO’s, I’m curious what purpose is served to show RFRO as 1st (which I usually shoot with my pistol) vs say Revolver at 10th?  How could this be the only meaningful result?  

means alot more than everyone came in first.

 

[jrdoran]

1 hour ago, Joe4d said:

 combined is the only meaningful result.

 

 

Joe, I'm not following you here.   I find combined the least useful of all the PS result sets as the low ready/rifle divisions are always going to produce lower total times.    Could you elaborate on your point of view here, especially as a revolver shooter.  

[Joe4d]

not that hard to disregard the rifles,,  For the centerfires in SC simply not much competitive difference,, so why not lump em ?  Pretty much all I look at are the combined.. Or in the case of SC stage results compared to my own .
I mean if you guys are shooting with 50 plus shooters divisions might mean a little.. But not really when you consider how similar most are... 

[bigdawgbeav]

On 9/14/2023 at 9:18 AM, GKB said:

The real question is should SCSA just be a mirror of USPSA, even when it doesn't make sense?

 

So far, that answer is "Yes".  If so, then if it's a USPSA division it needs to be a SCSA division.

 

If "No", then the SCSA rules on divisions needs to be cleaned up to what makes sense for SCSA. 

 

Consolidate LIMITED and PRODUCTION.  The only difference is a mag capacity, gun/mag size restriction, and the "On the Approved Production LIst".  None of which gives an advantage in SCSA.  Throw away the restriction on magwells.  CARRY OPTICS would just be the revised PRODUCTION division with an optic.

Off Topic: That is also why there have been numerous discussions about SCSA having it's own Board... /threadjack

[Hoops]

We did get off topic.  
 

[Joe4d]

not really. The OP was does SC have LO,,, answer is no, would be in open or CO. you then asked why,,,
And you got your answers... Too many divisions already, not any competitive difference in many of them as is.
and alot of matches are fairly small making folks just look at the overall anyways.
That being said it wouldnt surprise me if USPSA added it and a dozen more ,, thinking it will increase shooters.

[Hoops]

My approach to LO was to go directly to numerous people that shoot one or all of our 4 monthly SCSA matches (separate MD’s).  Members and non-members .  It was unanimous….they all said yes to adding LO’s.  There are a lot of 1911/2011’s sitting idle in safes.
 

I doubt they had a clue about world records or knew how many divisions exist.  
 

I also talked with several folks that shoot exclusively USPSA matches.  A couple of them had just built expensive LO guns.  They were enthusiastic about LO’s.

 

I read several posts in the Enos USPSA section and found several screen shots of match division breakdown’s.  It seemed clear to me that LO is gaining popularity in USPSA.

 

The above is not to suggest that everyone is supportive of LO.  That would be impossible.  I’m sure that if I talked to 100% of the shooters there would be some against or with no opinion.  But I can say that my efforts locally on the ground and thru Enos, indicated to me that LO at a minimum, should be added to SCSA as provisional.  

There is enough data to establish initial Peak Times.  Each SCSA shooter should understand that their final classification would be established after the probation period and against adjusted Peak Times.

 

it’s up to the BOD’s….or perhaps with Zack Jones.  Zack has indicated he is reviewing the SCSA option and seemed to indicate it will be allowed near the first of the year.  Perhaps sooner Zack?  

[Joe4d]

would just be more evidence at how out of touch the BOD is with Steel challenge if they do.
All those 1911's can already shoot in open.  There simply isnt any competitive reason to add LO to steel challenge when CO and Open already exist. There is no major power factor or any power factor, so comps are not advantageous, you arnt double tapping, so dot tracking edge of a frame mounted optic is irrelevant. 
For that matter dont see the point of CO being separate either.
Rather than add LO, would make more sense to just do away with the prohibition of external SA. 
SOunds like you live in a good area 4 matches a month.. 
dont have that many a year here.  One club has a monthly but its on same day as an ICORE so shoot that. The other club seems to have then or not have them with no rhyme or reason I have figured out yet.

[shred]

Every centerfire can "just shoot in Open" if that's the criteria.  Used to be there was Irons and Optics for centerfire SC and that was that, but people bellyached and complained that the reason they weren't competitive was their gear (it never is), and now there are heaps of centerfire divisions with no major differences, so why not another?

 

Interestingly, every competitive Optics pistol in those days was a comped racegun of some sort, despite the extra costs and minor PF, so I'd say there is an advantage to a comp.  I certainly saw one when I was seriously shooting SC back in the day.  Not as much as at USPSA, but its there.

 

[Hoops]

I do live in a good area.  I actually live within 1 hour drive of 5 active monthly SC matches year round.    That’s why I had a number of people to reach out to regarding LO.

 

But hey, I’m just one old guy who loves to shoot steel and to have fun

[jrdoran]

Fanning the flames !!!!   

 

How about ? 

• Senior vs Super Senior vs Distinguished Senior ?  
• Preteen vs junior ? 
• Lady vs Foreign ? 
• Law Enforcement vs Military ? 

 

How does everybody feel about those micro sub-classifications ? 

 

J/K. please do not go down this rabbit hole.  

 

 

[GKB]

Just came back from the 2023 Area 6 Championship.

 

224 guns competed

   0 SINGLE STACK (0%)

   2 PRODUCTION (0.9%)

   3 LIMITED (1.3%)

   14 CARRY OPTICS (6.3%)

   17 OPEN (7.6%)

 

Combined, that is 36 centerfire semi autos pistols (16%).

 

[Darqusoull13]

22 hours ago, GKB said:

Just came back from the 2023 Area 6 Championship.

 

224 guns competed

   0 SINGLE STACK (0%)

   2 PRODUCTION (0.9%)

   3 LIMITED (1.3%)

   14 CARRY OPTICS (6.3%)

   17 OPEN (7.6%)

 

Combined, that is 36 centerfire semi autos pistols (16%).

 

Looks like a low turnout overall as well. 

[Joe4d]

23 hours ago, GKB said:

Just came back from the 2023 Area 6 Championship.

 

224 guns competed

   0 SINGLE STACK (0%)

   2 PRODUCTION (0.9%)

   3 LIMITED (1.3%)

   14 CARRY OPTICS (6.3%)

   17 OPEN (7.6%)

 

Combined, that is 36 centerfire semi autos pistols (16%).

 

so what were the rest ? rimfire pistols ? rifles ?

[GKB]

The full breakdown of the AREA 6 match by division shot:

 

   0 SINGLE STACK (0%)

   2 PRODUCTION (0.9%)

   3 LIMITED (1.3%)

   14 CARRY OPTICS (6.3%)

   17 OPEN (7.6%)

 

   1 IRON SIGHT REVOLVER (0.4%)

   2 OPTICAL SIGHT REVOLVER (0.9%)

 

  4 PCC IRON (1.8%)

  40 PCC OPTICS (17.9%)

 

  6 RIMFIRE PISTOL IRON (2.7%)

  41 RIMFIRE PISTOL OPEN (18.3%)

 

   21 RIMFIRE RIFLE IRON (9.4%)

   73 RIMFIRE RIFLE OPEN (32.6%)

 

  2 DQs and at least one DNF due to the rifle breaking.

 

Overall high was 59.95 seconds by Jesse Grant in RFRO.

[lgh]

21 hours ago, GKB said:

... and at least one DNF due to the rifle breaking.

Not to hijack this but any idea which rifle and why?

[jrdoran]

To amplify how ultra competitive the low ready divisions are when compared to the CF.   I compute match classification for matches ( how you did on all 8 against your division PST in that match ).  Here is the first 50 from the area 6 match.  On the far right is the classification / letter designation for the match.  

• top 10 all shot > 100% in this match against their PST division
• Out of the top 50 there is only (5) CF divisions represented ( 4) CO; (1) OPN
• Iron divisions frequently end up with a higher match classification achievement due to the higher PST ( RFRO(68) vs RFRI(74) )
• Top CF shooter shot a 93% for the match

 

[jrdoran]

1 hour ago, lgh said:

Not to hijack this but any idea which rifle and why?

Perhaps this is related to the “Seinfeld” episode “The Postponement”

George: I want your honest opinion about something.

Jerry: Have I ever been less than forthright?

George: No, you haven’t. Well, maybe you have. What do I know.

Jerry: Yeah, I probably have. Yeah, of course I have. What am I talking about?

George: All right. Okay, tell me what you think about this idea: Extend the doors on the toilet stalls at Yankee Stadium all the way to the floor.

Jerry: Extend the doors on the toilet stalls at Yankee Stadium to the floor …door comes down. Hides your feet. Yes. I like it. I like it a lot.

George: It’s good, right?

Jerry: I think it’s fantastic. I think it’s a fantastic idea.

George: You do?

Jerry: Yes, I do.

George: Well, I told it to Susan: before, and she didn’t like it.

Jerry: Hmm.

George: Yeah. Not only that, this is what she said to me, “Can we change the subject?”

Jerry: See, now that I don’t care for.

George: Right. I mean, we’re on a subject. Why does it have to be changed?

Jerry: It should resolve of its own volition.

George: That’s exactly what I said, except I used the word “momentum”.

Jerry: Momentum - same thing.

[GKB]

1 hour ago, lgh said:

Not to hijack this but any idea which rifle and why?

Fortunately for your question, I was on the squad where this happened.

 

Ejector was loose and wobbling causing FTEs.

 

Shooter is a 4 division GM and said the rifle had a high round count through it.  He made it through the first 2 stages cleanly (faster than his PCCO, RFPO, or RFPI times for the same stages) and, IIRC, hit problems during the 3rd stage (resulting in 21.17 sec on ROUNDABOUT) and couldn't fix it on site and took DNF for the other stages.

 

Since he placed 8th overall in PCCO, this probably cost him a Top 10 spot in RFRO.

Edited September 27, 2023 by GKB

[lgh]

Thanks. Will be doing some SC over the next year. Getting the gear together. A lot of good stuff  out there. Should be fun!