Soft cover barrel

[kpbaer]

Can a steel moving target that's not visible behind a soft cover barrel be engaged before activation. Two very Qualified people said yes . Which rules would apply? Just trying to understand it better

[shred]

4.1.4.2, 9.1.6 and 9.9.4 depending on the WSB.

 

[IVC]

The main rule about engagement before activation is covered under the course construction, rule 2.1.8.5. Once you know that you can shoot any target before activation and that WSB cannot prohibit this (except Level 1 matches, rule 2.1.8.5.1), the question is now just that of cover. 

 

Barrels are by default hard cover (Course Construction, rule 2.2.3.4, and Scoring, rule 9.1.6). This means that barrel in question must have been declared "soft cover" in the WSB, otherwise it would default to hard cover. Once declared soft cover, scoring and usage is covered under Range Equipment, rule 4.1.4.2. Soft cover is treated as if it's not there for scoring. 

 

Declaring a barrel "soft cover" is not a good idea at many levels. First, it's an invitation to shoot through the barrel and damage it quite a bit. More importantly, shooting through a barrel can be risky as bullets can get significantly deflected and under some circumstances even trapped inside the barrel. A high velocity projectile doing donuts inside the barrel could potentially find an exit hole in any direction, a recipe for disaster. 

 

As a quick side note, trip down the memory lane. The new rule 9.9.3 requires target activation on the clock, by mandating activation with or before the last shot. This is because some years ago, before the rules about shooting area were cleaned up, a competitor ran outside the barriers, stood on the wall feet, engaged a hidden swinger at arms length and not activated, then before finishing the course of fire but after firing the last shot casually walked to the activator and stepped on it to activate the target "during the course of fire." But one thing that never changed is the ability to shoot targets at any time, including before activating them. 

[BritinUSA]

The other issue with a barrel being defined as soft cover is that it will not provide the same result for different shooters. The path through the barrel would be completely random. By luck alone some shooters would be able to hit the target and some not, even if their sights were perfectly aligned.

 

I think soft cover should only be made of a material that cannot alter the path of the bullet.

[Blackstone45]

On the face of it, declaring a barrel as soft cover just seems like an idiotic idea. That said, I've shot matches where there are small gaps between barrels to shoot through, and sometimes it's not clear to the RO if a bullet wholly struck the barrel before going on to hit the target.

[Schutzenmeister]

Once upon a time declaring barrels as soft cover was a common practice at Area Championships and the Nationals.  Fortunately, that lunacy seems to have passed.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

This was a decision made on the fly to stop what would have been a lot of reshoots. 
Swinging steel plate behind barrels. 

 

[IVC]

2 hours ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

This was a decision made on the fly to stop what would have been a lot of reshoots. 
Swinging steel plate behind barrels. 

 

Ugh, figures. Poor design choice leads to problems, as usual. 

 

I know it's a blast to shoot plates and all sorts of props such as plate racks or Texas stars, but the only way to run them effectively even at Level 1 matches is to break the rules and count the hits. Some people call this "stretching," but it's really breaking the rules. Choosing to declare hard cover "soft" to avoid reshoots is exactly what we shouldn't be doing. Soft cover should be, well, soft cover because it obscures the view and doesn't affect the bullets passing through. And to avoid reshoots, we shouldn't be using targets that are known to cause REM-reshoots. We especially shouldn't be inviting the REM-reshoots with moving targets behind hard cover and then try to maneuver around the reshooting rules. Ugh. 

 

It worked in the end, so who am I to judge? 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Yea. 
minus having the match director redue the stage and tablets on a super hot day running late. 
Hindsight we could have just (keep in mind we’re RO on the first squad shooting the stage )

Stapled no- shoots to the barrels and kept them hard cover that would’ve stopped the reshoots also. 
live and learn. 

[regor]

On 7/10/2023 at 4:35 PM, BritinUSA said:

The other issue with a barrel being defined as soft cover is that it will not provide the same result for different shooters. The path through the barrel would be completely random.

If a shooter decides to shoot through a soft cover barrel, that's a risk they are assuming. We had an activator behind a soft cover barrel at a match last year and of the ~3 people that tried shooting through it, 1 actually got it right away and it probably saved them <1s, one shot half a mag at it and never hit it, and the third had it deflect and hit the popper stand, which cost them multiple seconds having to run back and shoot the activator from the intended spot. 

 

On the flip side, if you DON'T make barrels soft cover you are providing an opportunity for inconsistent RO scoring/likelihood of reshoots if ROs aren't routinely checking for barrel strikes and restoring the barrel after each shooter. I personally do not trust that barrel strikes will be consistently scored and restored at L1 matches. 

 

Soft cover barrels are a very useful tool to have as a supplement to good stage design. I don't think they should be the default, you can often make changes to a stage to avoid them, but we frequently have to use them when we are running low on walls or need to obscure something through the 180, and in those situations it is often better to just make them soft cover instead of messing around with stapling no-shoots to the sides. 

[IL-SIG]

Softcover barrels is a terrible idea and should be avoided for many of the reasons described previously. 
 

Using barrels in lieu of walls does not require they be softcover. Do you use walls as softcover?  Also, why would blocking the view of a target beyond 180 require softcover? Maybe you have the terms hardcover and softcover reversed.  

[perttime]

8 hours ago, IL-SIG said:

... Do you use walls as softcover? ...

 

I've shot some IPSC matches where that was an option: shoot targets that you cannot see, or see fully, behind a soft cover wall, or run to a place where you can see them well.

 

I remember well one where there were targets low behind a low wall, and one where there was a plate behind a wall. Getting to a position where you had a clear view meant more distance running and more time.

Edited July 14, 2023 by perttime

[regor]

23 hours ago, IL-SIG said:

Using barrels in lieu of walls does not require they be softcover. Do you use walls as softcover?  Also, why would blocking the view of a target beyond 180 require softcover? Maybe you have the terms hardcover and softcover reversed.  

 

I never used the word required, but if we have to put *something* in a position where it is likely that it will end up shot (e.g. vision barriers during the 180), we typically will choose barrels to keep our walls in good shape. And since barrels are often not checked for hits at Level 1 matches, making them soft cover ensures that scoring will be consistent, even with inconsistent ROs. 

 

At a L2 match where there are static ROs, I would be much less likely to include soft cover barrels. 

[IVC]

3 hours ago, regor said:

 

I never used the word required, but if we have to put *something* in a position where it is likely that it will end up shot (e.g. vision barriers during the 180), we typically will choose barrels to keep our walls in good shape. And since barrels are often not checked for hits at Level 1 matches, making them soft cover ensures that scoring will be consistent, even with inconsistent ROs. 

The only problem is that once you make them a soft cover it's no longer a matter of deflected shots that skim the edge of it, you're allowing shooting at the barrels from anywhere and for any reason, through the middle, or even over the top of the barrels. Whether they extend to infinity or not (rule 2.2.3.3) is irrelevant for soft cover since one can shoot through it anyways.