Stafford Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 If a shooter misses the bucket of the holster and the top of the pistol slides down the back of the holster, is the gun considered to be pointed up range? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, Stafford said: If a shooter misses the bucket of the holster and the top of the pistol slides down the back of the holster, is the gun considered to be pointed up range? Check out rule 10.5.6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 One of the solid reasons to not get in a hurry a holstering/reholstering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stafford Posted June 13, 2023 Author Share Posted June 13, 2023 54 minutes ago, ChuckS said: Check out rule 10.5.6 This rule is specific to loaded firearms. How about at the end of a stage at hammer down and holster. Does 10.5.2 apply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 43 minutes ago, Stafford said: This rule is specific to loaded firearms. How about at the end of a stage at hammer down and holster. Does 10.5.2 apply? Yeah, but 10.5.2 points to 10.5.6 as an exception. Looking back at these 2 rules, you get the 3' radius tolerance for a loaded gun but not an unloaded gun. Oh my.. We can now argue about it for a few pages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 “If at any time during the course of fire…..” The COF is not finished until Range is Clear. Additional discussion unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 "... (limited exceptions: 10.5.6)." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 “…..whether the firearm is loaded or not….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 The OP did not mention a loaded firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 32 minutes ago, George Jones said: The OP did not mention a loaded firearm. I know. But 10.5.6 does. 10.5.6 While facing downrange, allowing the muzzle of a loaded firearm to point uprange beyond a radius of 3 feet from a competitor’s feet while drawing or re-holstering. The way I interpret this, if the muzzle of the loaded gun points uprange more than the 3' radius, it is a DQ. My point is that 10.5.6 does not apply to unloaded guns so a shooter holsters a gun with the slightest angle uprange is in violation of rule 10.5.2 cuz the 3' radius does not apply to unloaded guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 We are on the horns of a quandary. The “intent” (did I just say that?) of 10.5.6 is during MR. Unfortunately, it does not say that. In today’s environment, single words seem to matter more than they did when that rule was written. Long before my time. It could use a tweak to avoid match “discussions “. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, ChuckS said: My point is that 10.5.6 does not apply to unloaded guns so a shooter holsters a gun with the slightest angle uprange is in violation of rule 10.5.2 cuz the 3' radius does not apply to unloaded guns. This seems like a good situation to apply some sense to (not common sense, lol). If we were to accept the literal interpretation, then we would literally be required to DQ every single shooter whose holster points slightly backwards, because after hammer down and holster at the end of their run, they are breaking the 180 with their *now unloaded* firearm at some point as they holster the gun. Obviously no one has been doing that, so either all RO's and RM's are deficient in their application of the rules..... or else that very literal interpretation is nonsense. Edited June 13, 2023 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, George Jones said: We are on the horns of a quandary. The “intent” (did I just say that?) of 10.5.6 is during MR. Unfortunately, it does not say that. In today’s environment, single words seem to matter more than they did when that rule was written. Long before my time. It could use a tweak to avoid match “discussions “. Yup! It was funny that I thought the 3' thing was universal. Stafford pointed out that the rule was for loaded guns. Oops... When I read the rules I try to avoid the "I-word" or "that's the way we always do it" and consider the possibility of someone holstering a gun with a "FBI like" cant and have some other competitor point out it is a DQ. You know it's these "surprise" exceptions that can be a real time sink. Kind of like the word "only" I guess the "before the start signal" could be added or perhaps just remove "loaded" and let the 3' thing stand for holstering, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 I don't mind using the I-word because interpretation is so fundamental to applying rules (and laws) that we have an entire branch of government devoted to it. It is extremely challenging to precisely cover every imaginable situation, and every imaginable ambulance-chaser's view of that situation, without becoming buried under an unwieldy mass of wordage. Oddly, mrs moto and I had a discussion about almost this situation a night or so ago, because she noticed a competitor's holster at our section match on sunday was pointed slightly backwards. looking at rule 5.2.7.3, it appears that holsters are allowed even if they point slightly backwards (as long as the muzzle points less than 3' from the shooter's feet). so if it's ok to use a holster that points back, and if it's ok to point a loaded gun back while holstering, that seems to imply that it is probably ok to point even unloaded guns slightly back while holstering, otherwise the rules would not even allow such holsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Effectus Magis Per Minor Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 When I started shooting USPSA long ago, (there were two divisions), I was using a holster with a rearward cant. I was taught that when holstering either after make ready or after a course of fire to step forward with my strong foot and turn my body so that as I holstered I was not breaking the 180. Some R/Os appreciated it and others wanted to chase me around to see what I was doing, haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadside72 Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 Seems like an easy rules update to push out. Just remove "loaded" from 10.5.6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 4 hours ago, George Jones said: We are on the horns of a quandary. The “intent” (did I just say that?) of 10.5.6 is during MR. Unfortunately, it does not say that. In today’s environment, single words seem to matter more than they did when that rule was written. Long before my time. It could use a tweak to avoid match “discussions “. Only question I have is, why is it safe to point a loaded(or unloaded for that matter) gun uprange while holstering yet it’s an instant DQ if one points a gun uprange by even a few inches at any other time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 IMO, it’s no different than the rule which allows you to sweep yourself (lower extremities) while drawing or holstering. Without those exceptions we would be shooting bullseye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtkwe Posted June 14, 2023 Share Posted June 14, 2023 10 hours ago, George Jones said: IMO, it’s no different than the rule which allows you to sweep yourself (lower extremities) while drawing or holstering. Without those exceptions we would be shooting bullseye. Very true, it's all a concession to making the sport work. Also during holstering/drawing you're the most controlled you ever are during a stage so the rule can be loosened slightly to account for minor problems like breaking the 180 by less than 3 feet to the ground. In theory it's about as safe to do the same while actually running a stage but it gets vastly harder to judge than the 180 and a lot easier to mess up so we don't allow it and have a carve out for when it's more controlled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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