Acceptable accuracy at 25 yards w/Shadow 2 ?

[ColoradoNick]

I want to make sure I'm not chasing my tail a bit here...

 

I have this idea in my head that I need to rework the load for my Shadow 2 as the accuracy isn't there. I've been zeroed at 15 yards and have not had any perceived accuracy issues. I've attached a photo of 10 rounds fired relatively quickly off hand. I believe the paster is a 3" target and this was at 15 yards. I've recently changed my zero from 15 to 25 yards and even using a rest I can't get a better group than 6-7". These are Acme 147 Flat Noses with range brass @ 1.13" and 3.2g of Titegroup. 

 

I've found Blue Bullets 135gr TC's in front of 3.6g of Sport Pistol gives me a 3-4" group at 25 yards off a rest which is better, other than having a few thousand of the 147's loaded already. I've also ordered some 115 and 124 plated TC's from RMR. 

 

My question is off a rest with an optic what accuracy is "good" at 25 yards? I'd like to stick with a 25 yard zero as it does make sense to me. I don't want to chase my tail here pursuing a ragged hole which I also understand isn't necessary. With a 25 yard zero I've found I'm roughly 1" low at 15, 1.5" low at 5, and 2" low at 3 yards. Maybe not enough to matter I guess? 

 

 

 

 

The 115's are also to try out in my wife's P320. I'd like to settle on a load though and be done with it. Bonus points if I can work a steel challenge load up without changing the powder charge. 

 

I'm shooting a fully Cajunized shadow 2 including their barrel bushing. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by ColoradoNick

[dapribek]

I’d say 3” to 4” at 25 yards is very good. You’ll be able to hit plates in USPSA with that kind of accuracy. I sight in my CO 34 in our indoor range, about 50 feet, and that has worked for me. Hope this helps. 

[asierra350]

I would die for that kind level of accuracy out of my PT H-Tac, and it costs 3 times as much

[ColoradoNick]

21 minutes ago, asierra350 said:

I would die for that kind level of accuracy out of my PT H-Tac, and it costs 3 times as much

Thanks. Sounds like there's no need to keep looking then. 

[fbzero]

I used to spend a bunch of time trying to make sure everything was as perfect as it could be when it came to things like accuracy.  Then I realized I was spending more time messing with the reloading side of things than the shooting side of things, and I had gotten into reloading to maximize the shooting side.

Now, I come up with a load, make sure it cycles well and then go straight back to the 25 yard line and start on the plate rack(making any RDS adjustments as necessary to dial it in first).  Once dialed in, as long as I'm hitting the plates at least 90% of the time, I call it good verify my chrono numbers and move on(My assumption is that with a high enough hit percentage, the 10% is more likely than not just me).

 

I was just as bad about 3gun.  Spent a bunch of time coming up with sub-MOA .223 loads, when in reality anything relatively close to MOA is going to get the job done and even that is only going to come into play on the long range stages.  USPSA isn't bulls-eye and 3gun isn't PRS.  All we really need is practical accuracy with extreme reliability.  I'd say keep your 135gr load and move on, but that's just me.

Edited May 15, 2023 by fbzero

[Racinready300ex]

I think your post might be confusing people. Sometimes on the internets we don't read everything. Your picture is a sub 2" group, and you're mentioning being concerned with accuracy at 25. It's not crazy for someone to read your title, look at that picture and say something like "I wish my gun shot that good" 

 

IMO, 6-7" groups off of a rest aren't good enough for USPSA. That means off a rest you can barely keep your group in the calibration zone of a mini popper. If I were shooting that gun and had any trouble on distant steel I'd start wonder if it was me or the gun. And going 1 for 1 on steel is vary important in this game, make up shots eat up time in a hurry. 

 

The 3-4" group you mentioned with the 135's is more reasonable.

[broadside72]

How big is the dot on your "optic" you mention? If its 5MOA or larger, you should turn down the brightness to minimize flare so you can get the dot on the same point each time. Any lens flare might be keeping you from aiming at exactly the same point each time. 

[ColoradoNick]

2 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

How big is the dot on your "optic" you mention? If it’s 5MOA or larger, you should turn down the brightness to minimize flare so you can get the dot on the same point each time. Any lens flare might be keeping you from aiming at exactly the same point each time. 

For sure, I run a 5 MOA SRO and it’s only bright enough to be able to see. I like to look “through” it.

[ColoradoNick]

15 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I think your post might be confusing people. Sometimes on the internets we don't read everything. Your picture is a sub 2" group, and you're mentioning being concerned with accuracy at 25. It's not crazy for someone to read your title, look at that picture and say something like "I wish my gun shot that good" 

 

IMO, 6-7" groups off of a rest aren't good enough for USPSA. That means off a rest you can barely keep your group in the calibration zone of a mini popper. If I were shooting that gun and had any trouble on distant steel I'd start wonder if it was me or the gun. And going 1 for 1 on steel is vary important in this game, make up shots eat up time in a hurry. 

 

The 3-4" group you mentioned with the 135's is more reasonable.

Thanks that was my initial reaction with the 147’s. I didn’t really shoot past 15 yards until recently. I also shot a classifier that had open targets at 25 that should have been a gimme. What’s weird to me is my grouping off hand at 15 (the photo) is very tight. It seems odd it would open up to 6-7” at 25 off a rest. I’m going to re-verify later this week. 

[lennyo3034]

Optic or irons? If optic have you checked for parallax?

 

I have a DPP that has no parallax at 10 yards but at 25 it’s enough to affect accuracy. My SRO does not have parallax at 25 yards.

 

With the SRO on my Shadow 2 Orange I have gotten 10 round groups of 1” at 25 yards. Rested of course. Slightly different since it has a 1911 style bushing but I wouldn’t expect the standard model to be significantly worse.

[ColoradoNick]

1 minute ago, lennyo3034 said:

Optic or irons? If optic have you checked for parallax?

 

I have a DPP that has no parallax at 10 yards but at 25 it’s enough to affect accuracy. My SRO does not have parallax at 25 yards.

 

With the SRO on my Shadow 2 Orange I have gotten 10 round groups of 1” at 25 yards. Rested of course. Slightly different since it has a 1911 style bushing but I wouldn’t expect the standard model to be significantly worse.

I have and it’s not appreciable from what I can tell. Lock up with the CGW bushing is as tight as my orange model so I doubt there would be a difference. 

[GeneBray]

Off hand can mean different things to people. I am assuming offhand means strong hand. Is that correct?  If you can shoot ~2” group at 15 yds strong hand only and with relatively fast splits, I would think your 25 yd group should be better. Any chrono data for the load?  Are the bullet holes at 25 yds symmetrical?  Even slight larger/different shape holes at 25 may mean a bullet stability issue.  Have you removed the SRO and verified that the mounting plate, if there one, is tight fit to slide. Likewise SRO to mounting plate/slide?  Re flare  3 items need to be clean on red dots. Both side of the lens. And the area where the LED is located. 
 

Shot in ECO for 21-22 yrs and was SC for some time. Would be happy to discuss on phone. Message me if you’d like to talk. 
 

{Edit}. Don’t believe we’ve met. If so, I apologize for not remembering your name. . 

Edited May 15, 2023 by GeneBray
Added info to post.

[ColoradoNick]

3 hours ago, GeneBray said:

Off hand can mean different things to people. I am assuming offhand means strong hand. Is that correct?  If you can shoot ~2” group at 15 yds strong hand only and with relatively fast splits, I would think your 25 yd group should be better. Any chrono data for the load?  Are the bullet holes at 25 yds symmetrical?  Even slight larger/different shape holes at 25 may mean a bullet stability issue.  Have you removed the SRO and verified that the mounting plate, if there one, is tight fit to slide. Likewise SRO to mounting plate/slide?  Re flare  3 items need to be clean on red dots. Both side of the lens. And the area where the LED is located. 
 

Shot in ECO for 21-22 yrs and was SC for some time. Would be happy to discuss on phone. Message me if you’d like to talk. 
 

{Edit}. Don’t believe we’ve met. If so, I apologize for not remembering your name. . 

I don’t think so, I just started USPSA in feb. the 147’s averaged out to 888fps so just a hair over 130pf. I don’t think they’re tumbling. The 135’s are similar and averaged 972fps. I’m going to revisit the range on Wednesday and come

back with some more data. Maybe even compare some factory ammo. 

[GeneBray]

Sounds good

[ringram]

Nobody has mentioned a few things.

 

1 Ballistic coefficient of 147 is  best

2 jacketed are best for accuracy all being equal

 

You also need to be aware of bullet diameter, CZ often like larger diameters for best accuracy. Exposed lead base jackets work well as I think they swell to fit the bore better.

 

The RMR you have should be good. Especially the Match Winner.

 

I can go from like 6" to 2" just by running the right bullet

Also be aware fitting a new barrel will get you under 2" group at 25.

 

You most definitely want the most accurate gun and load you can get. You are losing points otherwise.

 

But Id try running different bullets first. See what that gets you.

[GeneBray]

19 hours ago, ringram said:

Nobody has mentioned a few things.

 

1 Ballistic coefficient of 147 is  best

2 jacketed are best for accuracy all being equal

 

You also need to be aware of bullet diameter, CZ often like larger diameters for best accuracy. Exposed lead base jackets work well as I think they swell to fit the bore better.

 

The RMR you have should be good. Especially the Match Winner.

 

I can go from like 6" to 2" just by running the right bullet

Also be aware fitting a new barrel will get you under 2" group at 25.

 

You most definitely want the most accurate gun and load you can get. You are losing points otherwise.

 

But Id try running different bullets first. See what that gets you.

Good points. IMO B. C. is not very relevant in USPSA.  But accuracy is. Vary COL and try different bullets-weight and/or manufacturer-to find best for a given powder. 

[JonasAberg]

How's the crimp on your bullets? I had some accuracy issues with heavier bullets until I backed off the crimp a little.

 

As far as accuracy goes, if I can consistently hit a plate at 25 m it's accurate enough for me.

[ColoradoNick]

6 hours ago, JonasAberg said:

How's the crimp on your bullets? I had some accuracy issues with heavier bullets until I backed off the crimp a little.

 

As far as accuracy goes, if I can consistently hit a plate at 25 m it's accurate enough for me.

Finally getting to the range tonight and this is one of the things I’m checking. I backed the crimp off enough to just leave a ring after pulling them. 

[ColoradoNick]

So I got out to the range tonight with the shadow 2 orange that I just had milled for an optic. Oddly that gun shot everything between a 1.1” and 2.3” group at 25 yards off of a rest. I’m going to settle on one of the two loads for USPSA:

RMR 124gr matchwinners

4.1gr of sport pistol @ 1.10 

 

or 

 

Acme 147’s 

3.2gr of sport pistol @ 1.12

 

i need to run both of them through a chrono. Back to the range tomorrow to work up a steel challenge load. Trying the RMR 124’s with 3.5-3.8gr of sport pistol and the 147’s with 3.1 to see if they’ll still function. 
 

the S2 orange is going to be my match gun. Once I get that load figured out I’ll run it through my other one again. Otherwise the other one will be used for bowling pin matches and dryfire. 

Edited May 24, 2023 by ColoradoNick

[Nobody909]

On 5/14/2023 at 6:31 PM, ColoradoNick said:

I want to make sure I'm not chasing my tail a bit here...

 

I have this idea in my head that I need to rework the load for my Shadow 2 as the accuracy isn't there. I've been zeroed at 15 yards and have not had any perceived accuracy issues. I've attached a photo of 10 rounds fired relatively quickly off hand. I believe the paster is a 3" target and this was at 15 yards. I've recently changed my zero from 15 to 25 yards and even using a rest I can't get a better group than 6-7". These are Acme 147 Flat Noses with range brass @ 1.13" and 3.2g of Titegroup. 

 

I've found Blue Bullets 135gr TC's in front of 3.6g of Sport Pistol gives me a 3-4" group at 25 yards off a rest which is better, other than having a few thousand of the 147's loaded already. I've also ordered some 115 and 124 plated TC's from RMR. 

 

My question is off a rest with an optic what accuracy is "good" at 25 yards? I'd like to stick with a 25 yard zero as it does make sense to me. I don't want to chase my tail here pursuing a ragged hole which I also understand isn't necessary. With a 25 yard zero I've found I'm roughly 1" low at 15, 1.5" low at 5, and 2" low at 3 yards. Maybe not enough to matter I guess? 

 

 

 

 

The 115's are also to try out in my wife's P320. I'd like to settle on a load though and be done with it. Bonus points if I can work a steel challenge load up without changing the powder charge. 

 

I'm shooting a fully Cajunized shadow 2 including their barrel bushing. 

This is plenty accurate for just about any USPSA match, other than the flyer to the right. 

My normal standard is 15 yards fist side group and 25 yards keep it in the A-zone.

[Nobody909]

1 minute ago, Nobody909 said:

This is plenty accurate for just about any USPSA match, other than the flyer to the right. 

My normal standard is 15 yards fist side group and 25 yards keep it in the A-zone.

This is free hand shooting. 

[ColoradoNick]

25 minutes ago, Nobody909 said:

This is plenty accurate for just about any USPSA match, other than the flyer to the right. 

My normal standard is 15 yards fist side group and 25 yards keep it in the A-zone.

I don't think 7" off of a rest equates to that. I recently shot 09-04 and on the 17 yard open target I had an alpha and a delta that skirted the perf. It kept me away from a master time. Can't help but think that apparently if I had my shadow 2 orange it would have at least been a Charlie instead of a delta. 

 

I'm going back to the range today to try some more ammo out in the blue gun to see if it was my crimp. Based on the factory ammo being much better in the orange I don't think it was though!

[Almo]

With a fully-cajunized Shadow 2, you should be able to shoot 3-4" groups ay 25 yards.  It should be a matter of finding the right load for that barrel.

On another note, I'd recommend going back to your 15 zero (with follow-up testing at 25 yards).  I've run ballistic calculations on several loads and found that, with a 15 yard zero, everything from 5 to 40 yards is within 1".

[ColoradoNick]

48 minutes ago, Almo said:

With a fully-cajunized Shadow 2, you should be able to shoot 3-4" groups ay 25 yards.  It should be a matter of finding the right load for that barrel.

On another note, I'd recommend going back to your 15 zero (with follow-up testing at 25 yards).  I've run ballistic calculations on several loads and found that, with a 15 yard zero, everything from 5 to 40 yards is within 1".

When I mounted the SRO on my orange it was dead on at 15. I also don’t see a reason to change it. 

[ColoradoNick]

The saga continues... lol. I put about 900 rounds through my barrel this weekend without cleaning using acme's and tite group trying to burn up about 2000 rounds I have already made and it leaded my barrel up terribly. I spent about an hour this morning to get it clean. I'm going to make the switch to jacketed as soon as I run out of acmes. I started using a lee undersized die and was able to back my crimp die waaaaaay off to the point I'm wondering if a crimping die is even necessary...