Do I need more crimp?

[ysrracer]

I found these today when I was unloading moons.

 

S&W 929, 4.2gr Win 231, 124gr RMR Bullet. You can see the crimp.

.

Edited May 14, 2023 by ysrracer

[Cherokeewind]

At least Two possibilities:

 

Excessively expanded case mouth for bullet seating.

(I use the absolute minimum case mouth expansion for seating plated/jacketed bullets.)

 

Too little crimp, although the crimp marks indicate pretty good crimp.

 

Keep in mind that variations in case length can and do change the crimp strength as the case length varies.

 

Are you able to measure the diameter of the crimped case at the very edge of the case mouth and then determine exactly how much the case is crimped compared to a sized case before the case is expanded for bullet seating? 

 

[RJH]

As long as you're using jacketed, I would probably go with the Lee factory crimp die and I think that would eliminate your problems. It will keep leads from jumping crimp, but it also kind of resizes them it can screw up accuracy in a revolver horribly. But I didn't see that happening when using jacketed  bullets

 

For what it's worth I seen a guy shooting factory 9 mm and some of them jumped so bad that they locked his gun up at a match

Edited May 14, 2023 by RJH

[Cherokeewind]

There can be variability in case wall thickness which will cause crimp tension variability but not much you can do about that.

 

As RJH posted, too much crimp can cause significant accuracy problems, so a tighter bullet to case fit will help to prevent bullet creep without having to over crimp.

[ysrracer]

I'm already using all Federal brass, and Lee dies with a Lee undersized die.

[pskys2]

Jacketed and plated have always exhibited pull out issues in my revolvers and set back issues in my semi autos.  Lead and coated take more exposures to show up though.

Pretty consistent among calibers too.

Older cases are more prone.

[ysrracer]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

For what it's worth I seen a guy shooting factory 9 mm and some of them jumped so bad that they locked his gun up at a match

 

Yes, when I first bought my 929 I tried factory ammo. Bullet creep and light hits.

 

I don't think factory 9mm ammo is crimped at all.

[Dr. Phil]

Your photos are the main reason I quit shooting any plated at all. I shot them for several years but they could almost never pass the "shoot 7, reload and shoot 7 then measure" test. They almost always pulled and I find that the coated don't.

 

[Farmer]

Could glue them in like mil ammo.  Little dab of #2 Permatex. 

[ysrracer]

2 hours ago, Farmer said:

Could glue them in like mil ammo.  Little dab of #2 Permatex. 

 

220, 221, what ever it takes.

[tomjerry1]

Glad to see I'm not the only one with this issue. I use Blue Bullets with the same result.

[Vic]

I've used DG ( Damn Good Bullets) for many years, great prices, always in stock, and never experienced any bullet creep in either 38 special or 38 SC.

[testosterone]

On 5/13/2023 at 8:40 PM, ysrracer said:

I found these today when I was unloading moons.

 

S&W 929, 4.2gr Win 231, 124gr RMR Bullet. You can see the crimp.

.

 

I think i may have commented here in the past about another approach on this.   

 

My first mentor worked up 38 special loads for for bianchi, his k frames would should a 2" 50 yard group with a berrys 158 bullet and n320.

 

I was looking back at old conversations he had and the method he used for bullets with no groove on revolvers was to crimp until the tumble, then back off 1/8 of a turn.   This is exactly how I loaded all my 38 spec and long colts and they never slipped.

 

Try that maybe.

[ysrracer]

Interesting, thanks

[Vic]

Perplexing topic; I've shot competitively since 1978, picking up with only revolver in 1991. Between practice, local, state and national/ international matches, I've shot many hundreds of thousands of rounds. Never once, at least that I've known,  have I had a problem like this one being discussed. 

   Be interesting to see the cause of this problem?

[tomjerry1]

My suspicion is the 9mm cartridge? I don't have any issues with straight wall cartridges. 

[ysrracer]

1 hour ago, tomjerry1 said:

My suspicion is the 9mm cartridge? I don't have any issues with straight wall cartridges. 

Agreed. I've loaded thousands of .38 Short Colt with a 160gr bayou bullet without any issue.

[testosterone]

btw, i should be very clear about specific mechanics here.

 

If you are loading 38 special with a dillon crimp die, the crimp is 2 stages and whether you adjust it into the 2nd part of the crimp(that does the roll)  is of course load dependent, it starts as a taper crimp, then past a certain point it becomes a roll crimp.   This is a handy design for reasons that are self evident.

 

what you probably can't do is get a 9mm deep enough into a 38 spec die to get to the roll.

 

Also,   a dillon 9mm die because its purely a taper crimp, you can't get a roll with it.

 

If you want to get a true roll crimp on a 9mm you will need a proper die to do it, and a lee FCD is also *not* a roll crimp.  If you are running an FCD and getting a line in the bullet you are potentially causing another problem for yourself.

 

This thread has made me do more homework, the only thing I can immediately find if you want a proper roll crimp on a 9mm that will probably do it is the hornady 9mm new dimension die for 9x21.

 

Lee also makes an actual 38 short colt crimp die which should be a roll crimp as well.

 

 

 

[testosterone]

also, was wondering if you pull those bullets you show there that creeped out, what are the dimensions?  and what is the case dimension before and after pulling?

its academic, just curious.

[ysrracer]

18 minutes ago, testosterone said:

btw, i should be very clear about specific mechanics here.

 

If you are loading 38 special with a dillon crimp die, the crimp is 2 stages and whether you adjust it into the 2nd part of the crimp(that does the roll)  is of course load dependent, it starts as a taper crimp, then past a certain point it becomes a roll crimp.   This is a handy design for reasons that are self evident.

 

what you probably can't do is get a 9mm deep enough into a 38 spec die to get to the roll.

 

Also,   a dillon 9mm die because its purely a taper crimp, you can't get a roll with it.

 

If you want to get a true roll crimp on a 9mm you will need a proper die to do it, and a lee FCD is also *not* a roll crimp.  If you are running an FCD and getting a line in the bullet you are potentially causing another problem for yourself.

 

This thread has made me do more homework, the only thing I can immediately find if you want a proper roll crimp on a 9mm that will probably do it is the hornady 9mm new dimension die for 9x21.

 

Lee also makes an actual 38 short colt crimp die which should be a roll crimp as well.

 

 

 

 

I'm loading both 9mm and .38 Short Colt on Lee 9mm dies. The only difference is I size the .38 Short Colt with a Dillon .38/.357 sizing die.

[testosterone]

1 hour ago, ysrracer said:

 

I'm loading both 9mm and .38 Short Colt on Lee 9mm dies. The only difference is I size the .38 Short Colt with a Dillon .38/.357 sizing die.

 

change the crimp die to something that does an actual roll crimp.

[ysrracer]

53 minutes ago, testosterone said:

 

change the crimp die to something that does an actual roll crimp.

 

I think the only die short enough would be a Lee .38 Short Colt.

[testosterone]

20 minutes ago, ysrracer said:

 

I think the only die short enough would be a Lee .38 Short Colt.

I agree.   The only options I see are the lee 38 sc die or possibly the hornady 9x21 die which they list as a roll crimp die.

[Joe4d]

20 hours ago, Vic said:

Perplexing topic; I've shot competitively since 1978, picking up with only revolver in 1991. Between practice, local, state and national/ international matches, I've shot many hundreds of thousands of rounds. Never once, at least that I've known,  have I had a problem like this one being discussed. 

   Be interesting to see the cause of this problem?

I am with Vic here, something else is goin on, I suspect a worn out or bad sizer, ? I had this problem with rainer's (set back) and that was due to the sizing being all over the place on the bullets so no way to get crimp.
I mean I am really scientific on my loads,,, I give the crimp die about a qtr turn after contact. Then I measure OAL,,, put bullet on bench, push on it, remeasure, if it didnt move I call it good.
I am using RCBS 9mm dies, but probably Lee 40 and 44.
Ive loaded  44 magnum with 240 gr smooth plated Berry's over 23 grs of H110 and not had bullet creep issues.
Maybe a new set of 9mm dies from Lyman or RCBS are in order.
I am new to a 929,, but so far factory, LAX reloads and my own reloads havent given me issue,,

[ysrracer]

47 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

I am new to a 929,, but so far factory, LAX reloads and my own reloads havent given me issue,,

 

It's your gun stock? My trigger is at six pounds double action. Down from twelve