Progressive Press Wishes

[cbrussell]

I agree; primer cost is a real issue.

On the press  front:

• I do think that the three point system on the Genesys is better than the single column used on other presses. Hopefully it will prove out in real world use to produce more consistent OAL. It may be more cumbersome if hand feeding bullets, but maybe not.
• I think the Genesys is more than just a spin-off; I think they are trying to package an out of the box all in one solution.
• I do agree that component cost probably is negative to spending that much money on a fully automated system; hard to keep it fed for most.
• I load on a RL1050 for the primer swage.
• I do believe that the sweet point is around $1,500.00 for a manual 10 station tool head press with bullet feeder. (I can live without the bullet feeder) That is why I think Frankfort Arsenal is on the right track, just will have to see if it holds up and produces consistent OAL. Dillon needs to counter with a 10 station toolhead but I won’t hold my breath.

[HOGRIDER]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

While I agree, I think these presses are going to be cost prohibitive for most.  How many people are reloading the amount of ammo required to make the ROI worth it?  

 

I would Love the new Genesys that $6k price tag is steep.  I am not sure I load enough ammo with current primer stock issues for that type of investment.  For me that money would be better served in other areas.  Curious to how many of those presses they will actually sell in the current economic climate.  It could be just a spin off of the Titan, which maybe the Titan has a real market and they have pre orders to justify the R&D.  In that case the Genesys makes sense.  If primer costs come down significantly and the economy does not melt down, then maybe more could make that investment.

 

They do look super awesome though.  Much better design in many aspects.  The three ram system seems way better than the pivot/knuckle system of older designs.  

@Boomstick303As always, you make some great points on all this............ 

 

As a new Apex10 owner, I'm still not upset that I didn't wait to get in on the Genesys as I wanted an upgrade path that allowed me to start with the machine in manual operation; then once I was totally comfortable with the necessary maintenance and operation, I could go fully automated along with several sensors which I think are worth their weight in gold!

 

I recently saw where a shooter just purchased a new fully automated Apex 10 with all the sensors and a 9mm die pack.  Total cost?  $6800!  So while this is not an exact comparison with the new Genesys, I do think it will be a definite consideration for those that are comfortable with and running fully automated presses to satisfy their competition/shooting requirements.

 

At this point, as I asked John Vlieger in another post, I'm wondering if Lyman/Mk7 will allow the end user to work on the new "bottom end" in case of a failure?  Will the end user/consumer be able to replace a motor in case of failure?  I'm guessing this automation system will use 3 "servo" motors; and just how expensive will these be to replace in case of failure?  Will there be a reasonable warranty to show that Mk7 is fully committed to promoting and supporting this new platform?

 

I truly hope they raise the bar and show other manufacturers just what it takes to get behind the release of products with so much technology and innovation!

 

BTW:  Back in 2008 when the country was going through major changes in leadership, I started purchasing/stockpiling primers/powder/components that would last a LONG TIME!  If things start to settle down in the next couple of years, I'll do the same thing again once prices stabilize.

 

  

[Zachjet]

I wish Hornady bullet and case feeders were as much as the machine lol 

[dannyd]

In 1986 when the 550 came out it was 234.99 today they sell about 590.00 which is about the same price with inflation.

[cbrussell]

55 minutes ago, HOGRIDER said:

@Boomstick303As always, you make some great points on all this............ 

 

As a new Apex10 owner, I'm still not upset that I didn't wait to get in on the Genesys as I wanted an upgrade path that allowed me to start with the machine in manual operation; then once I was totally comfortable with the necessary maintenance and operation, I could go fully automated along with several sensors which I think are worth their weight in gold!

 

I recently saw where a shooter just purchased a new fully automated Apex 10 with all the sensors and a 9mm die pack.  Total cost?  $6800!  So while this is not an exact comparison with the new Genesys, I do think it will be a definite consideration for those that are comfortable with and running fully automated presses to satisfy their competition/shooting requirements.

 

At this point, as I asked John Vlieger in another post, I'm wondering if Lyman/Mk7 will allow the end user to work on the new "bottom end" in case of a failure?  Will the end user/consumer be able to replace a motor in case of failure?  I'm guessing this automation system will use 3 "servo" motors; and just how expensive will these be to replace in case of failure?  Will there be a reasonable warranty to show that Mk7 is fully committed to promoting and supporting this new platform?

 

I truly hope they raise the bar and show other manufacturers just what it takes to get behind the release of products with so much technology and innovation!

 

BTW:  Back in 2008 when the country was going through major changes in leadership, I started purchasing/stockpiling primers/powder/components that would last a LONG TIME!  If things start to settle down in the next couple of years, I'll do the same thing again once prices stabilize.

 

  

All good points. I still have not gotten comfortable with automated reloading; probably just stuck in my ways.
Interesting price comparison between fully automated Apex 10 and Genesys. Makes a little bit of sense but I too wonder about the serviceability of the Genesys system; they made a pretty big statement during the introduction video that it was not user serviceable. Everything breaks at some point; having to send a press in for service does not float my boat.

I am really interested in their new gear driven powder measure. Still looking for that super accurate progressive press powder drop.

Based on your positive experiences with the Apex 10, that is the route I would go for a 10 station press. Still not sold on that bullet feeder/seater on Frankford Arsenal progressive press. For me I prefer setting the bullet on the cartridge, seating and crimping in three separate operations/stations. Really like my Micrometer seating and crimping dies.

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, HOGRIDER said:

I wanted an upgrade path that allowed me to start with the machine in manual operation;

 

Smart.  In my eyes everyone should take this path unless they have years of reloading experience.  Even then, they at a minimum should understand the issues the press can create during normal loading so they know what to look out for when automated and learn maintenance intervals.  The last two years of manual reloading has been a requirement for me before automating.  The one thing automation removes is the feedback pulling the lever gives the user.  This will disappear once automation is instituted.  I could nip a lot of issues in the bud just from feedback of the handle.  

 

1 hour ago, HOGRIDER said:

I could go fully automated along with several sensors which I think are worth their weight in gold!

 

These are a necessity to catch a lot of issues you will not get from the feedback from the handle in manual operation.  I agree, worth their weight in gold.  

 

1 hour ago, HOGRIDER said:

At this point, as I asked John Vlieger in another post, I'm wondering if Lyman/Mk7 will allow the end user to work on the new "bottom end" in case of a failure?  Will the end user/consumer be able to replace a motor in case of failure?  I'm guessing this automation system will use 3 "servo" motors; and just how expensive will these be to replace in case of failure?  Will there be a reasonable warranty to show that Mk7 is fully committed to promoting and supporting this new platform?

 

All reasonable points and questions.  I think that will come down to how well the machine is built.  If it becomes a maintenance nightmare, Lyman will quickly realize they cannot cover all those parts in a way that Dillon does if any of those parts do not have any sort of longevity.  Dillon by the way will not cover parts on a machine of theirs that has been automated in some way after initial purchase I believe and understandable in that commercial loaders would decimate their after market and support budget.

 

1 hour ago, HOGRIDER said:

I truly hope they raise the bar and show other manufacturers just what it takes to get behind the release of products with so much technology and innovation!

 

If there is a market for these units and they prove durable and on point in their operation, I would think other manufacturers would have to pay attention and innovate.   

 

With the release of the new Lymen machines, the FA X-10 (due to the number of stations mostly at a decent price point) and automation becoming more main stream I think other companies better innovate or they will be left behind.  With the recent release of the 750, 1100 and their DA3000 automated machines, I am not sure if Dillon has anything in the pipeline in regards to 10-12 station reloading machines, but they might want to think about working in that direction.  In my personal opinion they dropped the ball with the DA3000 in that I think the Mark7 designated for Dillon machines blows it out of the water but that is another discussion.  

 

1 hour ago, HOGRIDER said:

BTW:  Back in 2008 when the country was going through major changes in leadership, I started purchasing/stockpiling primers/powder/components that would last a LONG TIME!  If things start to settle down in the next couple of years, I'll do the same thing again once prices stabilize.

 

I was able to do the same for the most part, but I did not reach my goal of enough supplies on hand for 80,000 rounds pistol and 30,000 rounds 223.  I have been able to cobble enough components for maintain around 30k pistol, and 20k 223 which I am ecstatic about, but its not enough in my eyes.  It seems things are stabilizing, but we will have to wait and see what 2023 and 2024 have in store in regards to reloading.  

[Boomstick303]

22 minutes ago, cbrussell said:

they made a pretty big statement during the introduction video that it was not user serviceable. Everything breaks at some point; having to send a press in for service does not float my boat.

 

I did not catch this.  Pretty much a deal breaker in my eyes two, unless of course Lymen wants to cover those shipping costs.

[HOGRIDER]

58 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I did not catch this.  Pretty much a deal breaker in my eyes two, unless of course Lymen wants to cover those shipping costs.

I posted in another thread that I had heard Anthony mention during the initial release video(s) done at SHOT, that the lower drive unit was "non-serviceable" with regards to maintenance.  Does this also mean it's non-serviceable with regards to a parts failure and replacement/repair?  At this point I have no idea.........

 

But I do feel it's a valid question/concern that many will want answered in the coming weeks.

 

 

@cbrussellsorry if I'm causing your OP to go off-topic............  

 

 

[HOGRIDER]

3 hours ago, cbrussell said:

 

On the press  front:

• Dillon needs to counter with a 10 station toolhead but I won’t hold my breath.

IMO, that would definitely be a consideration in the right direction.  But would they redesign/manufacture a bottom end to support the 10 station toolhead?

 

[cbrussell]

4 minutes ago, HOGRIDER said:

IMO, that would definitely be a consideration in the right direction.  But would they redesign/manufacture a bottom end to support the 10 station toolhead?

 

I don’t see why they would/could not with the engineering/experience. I agree that  the question is do they feel the need with their present sales/backlog. However, many a business has fallen prey to stagnation. If your not moving forward you are moving backwards; there is no such thing as maintaining the status quo.

[cbrussell]

13 minutes ago, HOGRIDER said:

I posted in another thread that I had heard Anthony mention during the initial release video(s) done at SHOT, that the lower drive unit was "non-serviceable" with regards to maintenance.  Does this also mean it's non-serviceable with regards to a parts failure and replacement/repair?  At this point I have no idea.........

 

But I do feel it's a valid question/concern that many will want answered in the coming weeks.

 

 

@cbrussellsorry if I'm causing your OP to go off-topic............  

 

 

No problem; it is all interesting information.

[slavex]

I think what Anthony meant to say was "less maintenance" due to things being motor driven vs linkage driven, there is less need to oil, grease those things. I don't think it he meant not serviceable. Although it is possible that user serviceable might be tough simply due to specialized parts and tools needed to work on them. I'd expect that to get cleared up in the coming weeks. 

[cbrussell]

I need to listen to both the original and Ultimate Reloader videos again to be sure/understand exactly what was said.

[HOGRIDER]

15 hours ago, cbrussell said:

I need to listen to both the original and Ultimate Reloader videos again to be sure/understand exactly what was said.

What I heard in the initial FB release starting around 10:45 was:

Quote

Essentially.....a non-serviceable, automated system where it doesn't require maintenance.........

IMO, at this venue it was more than likely a "selling point" to reinforce the need for little to no maintenance by the end user.  And I can understand that with regards to say, the Apex10/Evolution series, that like many other machines require applications of grease and/or lightweight oil for proper function.......

 

Now, back to watch the UR video again............

 

 

PS:  For those that don't do FB, the same video has just been uploaded to YouTube.............

 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by HOGRIDER
update

[Farmer]

To me when they say Non Serviceable, that means it’s sealed and replaced as a unit if/when it fails. Like ball joints without grease fittings or hermetically sealed motors. 

[cbrussell]

2 hours ago, Farmer said:

To me when they say Non Serviceable, that means it’s sealed and replaced as a unit if/when it fails. Like ball joints without grease fittings or hermetically sealed motors. 

My take as well.

[Farmer]

I also wonder on the Titan with the dual set up if a person could load two different calibers at the same time, like 9 & 40. 
And on the Genesys beings everything is driven separately does that mean you could rotate just the shellplate to empty it if there was a problem?

Edited January 23, 2023 by Farmer
Added

[SSGJohnV]

Hello, everyone! 

 

The Genesys drive train is composed of three independent motors, and minimal accessory parts besides, making for a very compact, simple, and robust drive system. This simple system means no user servicing is required for the life of the unit, but in the unlikely event of pre-mature wear the system is easily serviceable. In short, we've made the drive system as robust as possible to minimize service requirements, and enhance function.

 

It's user serviceable if needed, but doesn't have regular service requirements due to the nature of the system. 

[cbrussell]

Thanks for providing this great information! 
I interpreted the video incorrectly; this should clear that up nicely.

[CC3D]

I wish that Dillon would update their powder measure. It gets the job done and it's accurate enough but the quality is honestly pretty poor in my opinion. Very loose and the failsafe rod system is pretty finicky for the price point of Dillon. It's the only thing on the press that I've ever had issues with and from what I understand the design has not been altered much in a few decades

[cbrussell]

This has been my ongoing quest for many moons; still haven’t found a solution. I am curious of the new Mark 7 gear driven powder measure could be adapted and if it would prove to be more accurate.

[slavex]

14 hours ago, SSGJohnV said:

Hello, everyone! 

 

The Genesys drive train is composed of three independent motors, and minimal accessory parts besides, making for a very compact, simple, and robust drive system. This simple system means no user servicing is required for the life of the unit, but in the unlikely event of pre-mature wear the system is easily serviceable. In short, we've made the drive system as robust as possible to minimize service requirements, and enhance function.

 

It's user serviceable if needed, but doesn't have regular service requirements due to the nature of the system. 

Thanks John

[slavex]

On 1/23/2023 at 2:32 PM, Farmer said:

I also wonder on the Titan with the dual set up if a person could load two different calibers at the same time, like 9 & 40. 
And on the Genesys beings everything is driven separately does that mean you could rotate just the shellplate to empty it if there was a problem?

I would venture, yes, that would be possible. I suppose one could load rounds with significant differences in OAL even. 

[SSGJohnV]

6 hours ago, slavex said:

I would venture, yes, that would be possible. I suppose one could load rounds with significant differences in OAL even. 

Loading/processing two cartridges on the same Titan is possible, providing that the cartridges both use the same shell plate. 

[slavex]

13 hours ago, SSGJohnV said:

Loading/processing two cartridges on the same Titan is possible, providing that the cartridges both use the same shell plate. 

ha, right, of course.