why shooting high?

[jimbullet]

I've noticed for the past couple of months now that there has been a change in my way of shooting that may be causing shots landing high by about 2-3 inches.

 

I zeroed my pistol out at 20 yards and at rest, it was consistently hitting right just at the tip of the front sight.

 

I then when to live fire Ipsc drills and was surprised that when doing two handed grip shooting steel plates out at 20 yards, I placed my sights at the 6 o'clock of the steel plates and yet the shots land 2-3 inches high and I could see the backstop consistently having 3-4 shots land there. I am positive to have seen the sights aligned well. I then began to aim below the steel plate around 2 inches which meant there was a gap between front sight and the steel (when aiming) to be able to hit the steel.

 

This is where it gets weird. On that same stage I had a steel plate out at 25 and I instinctively aimed at 6 o'clock of the steel and this time it hit it. Now I am thinking, its not the zeroing of the gun but something else. 

 

Usually a flinch would make the shots go low. In this case, its consistently high. Again the weird part is that it consistently grouped 1 inch above the steel plate. 

 

Thoughts on what is happening?

[jimbullet]

In another stage, it has also done the same thing and was able to capture it on video below. Looking at it, I dont think I am breaking my wrist but  open to some thoughts?

 

Its around the 0.11 seconds of the video

 

[shred]

You zeroing off a rest?  What glasses?  Focus shifting front-sight to target-focus?

 

I've seen all of those cause impact shifts.  Best way I found to diagnose is sit there at the range and test all of them one after another while shooting groups off a rest, then stand up and do the same thing to compare.

 

Shooting a dot also grab it and try to rock it back and forth as mystery-high is often something loose or broken.

 

 

[rowdyb]

Heeling the gun when not at a rest

[jimbullet]

13 hours ago, shred said:

You zeroing off a rest?  What glasses?  Focus shifting front-sight to target-focus?

 

I've seen all of those cause impact shifts.  Best way I found to diagnose is sit there at the range and test all of them one after another while shooting groups off a rest, then stand up and do the same thing to compare.

 

Shooting a dot also grab it and try to rock it back and forth as mystery-high is often something loose or broken.

 

 

Yes I was zeroing off a rest and used my usual shooting glasses (with no prescription grade) I'll check on that next I'm on range re- front sight focus to target focus.

 

Thanks

[jimbullet]

11 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Heeling the gun when not at a rest

I thought about that but I zeroed another 2011 Edge pistol on that same day and also did some off rest shots with it. While the distance I tested this particular gun was only around 10 -12 yards, the hits were spot on from a quick draw to two rounds on target. I'll however keep this in mind (i.e. heeling) in case I'm not being aware when I shift to the 2011 DVC pistol

[rowdyb]

Sometimes a rest can hide something that shows unsupported.  Just guessing the lowest hanging fruit.

[shred]

Sometimes even looking through a different part of your glasses on the rest can cause POI shifts

 

1911's can throw the first shot slightly off from the rest, so test that too.

 

Most likely its you, but we go with the Robbie Rule (said to me by TGO) here-- "Blame the gun first.  It's never the gun, but always blame it first".

 

[sharko]

I always zero from a rest when I've changed something mostly to check for consistency but then I always have to readjust while shooting unsupported. 

[csailer]

Could be zero.  Could be not letting the sights return to center, especially if you're sight focus and let it steady high rather than maintaining focus on the center and letting the sights return to that same middle spot.  Could be either.  Have someone else zero or bench your gun and pay attention to where your eyes focus and where your sights are actually relative to the target when then gun goes bang.  CS

 

[jimbullet]

I've had a few more sessions to check this out over this weekend and have found for some reason recoil has something to do with it. I did one handed shooting (strong and weak hand).

 

My understanding is that the bullet would have exited the barrel (and is on its way to the target) even before the slide starts to move back and recoil is actually felt. However, what I have found during a strong hand only shooting session is that when the gun recoils and I had a "softer" grip, which means that the gun flips higher (breaking on the wrist), the shots tend to have a higher point of impact.

 

When I have a stronger grip which meant that the gun flips less and a stronger wrist control, that allows less muzzle flip, the shots actually land spot on to the target.

 

Does that mean perhaps I am pushing the gun up prior to actually firing causing the shots to go higher?

[lgh]

3 hours ago, jimbullet said:

Does that mean perhaps I am pushing the gun up prior to actually firing causing the shots to go higher?

I believe that is what Rowdy is referring to when he says "heeling the gun". Not all that uncommon. Sounds like you might have the solution with a stronger grip. Can't say enough good things about a strong and consistent grip.

 

 

[IVC]

Confirm mechanical zero. 20 yards is a good distance so make sure your preferred POA matches POI. Once you have this, it's not the gun, it's you.

 

Once you know it's you, it's the trigger control. You ARE moving the gun prior to firing the shot and you know this because you confirmed the zero. The gun will shoot where it's pointed. You can watch super slow motion videos, or you can do a quick physics calculations to realize that there isn't enough time for the mass of the gun to get moved  much by the time the bullet exits the barrel, and the little movement there is is in line with the barrel. So, if you're off it's because you moved the gun as you pulled the trigger. 

 

Do a simple test. Shoot free hand in "bullseye mode" where you slowly add pressure to the trigger while keeping sites on the target and let the gun shoot whenever it decides to. Try it with weaker or stronger grip, one or two handed. You should see that the gun is hitting exactly where you're keeping it while operating the trigger. If you convince yourself that the gun WILL shoot where pointed, you'll now have a homework to figure out WHAT is causing the movement when you operate the trigger. 

[StefVanHauwe]

When I think that the point of aim and point of impact are off too much, I recheck the zero (12m (range distances in EU are smaller than in US)+ arms (not gun) fully supported). When I confirmed the zero, I video the gun shooting in my hands to detect issues with grip, grip pressure, incorrect trigger control, etc. and adjust accordingly.

[Blackstone45]

32 minutes ago, IVC said:

Confirm mechanical zero. 20 yards is a good distance so make sure your preferred POA matches POI. Once you have this, it's not the gun, it's you.

 

Once you know it's you, it's the trigger control. You ARE moving the gun prior to firing the shot and you know this because you confirmed the zero. The gun will shoot where it's pointed. You can watch super slow motion videos, or you can do a quick physics calculations to realize that there isn't enough time for the mass of the gun to get moved  much by the time the bullet exits the barrel, and the little movement there is is in line with the barrel. So, if you're off it's because you moved the gun as you pulled the trigger. 

 

Do a simple test. Shoot free hand in "bullseye mode" where you slowly add pressure to the trigger while keeping sites on the target and let the gun shoot whenever it decides to. Try it with weaker or stronger grip, one or two handed. You should see that the gun is hitting exactly where you're keeping it while operating the trigger. If you convince yourself that the gun WILL shoot where pointed, you'll now have a homework to figure out WHAT is causing the movement when you operate the trigger. 

Fully agree. While it is true that the gun will begin to rise as soon as the bullet begins to move in the barrel, the difference that a strong and weak grip makes to this effect will be negligible.

[jimbullet]

48 minutes ago, IVC said:

Confirm mechanical zero. 20 yards is a good distance so make sure your preferred POA matches POI. Once you have this, it's not the gun, it's you.

 

Once you know it's you, it's the trigger control. You ARE moving the gun prior to firing the shot and you know this because you confirmed the zero. The gun will shoot where it's pointed. You can watch super slow motion videos, or you can do a quick physics calculations to realize that there isn't enough time for the mass of the gun to get moved  much by the time the bullet exits the barrel, and the little movement there is is in line with the barrel. So, if you're off it's because you moved the gun as you pulled the trigger. 

 

Do a simple test. Shoot free hand in "bullseye mode" where you slowly add pressure to the trigger while keeping sites on the target and let the gun shoot whenever it decides to. Try it with weaker or stronger grip, one or two handed. You should see that the gun is hitting exactly where you're keeping it while operating the trigger. If you convince yourself that the gun WILL shoot where pointed, you'll now have a homework to figure out WHAT is causing the movement when you operate the trigger. 

I managed to have a quick visit to the range the next day but didn't have enough time and thought to confirm zero by doing some slow fire bull shooting unsupported two hand shooting and the results have confused me even more. Its telling me that the  groups are high as I have my front sight right at the bottom of the white patch. But then my groups are a bit wide. This is at 15 meters

[ParrytheWind]

On 1/10/2023 at 8:19 PM, sharko said:

I always zero from a rest when I've changed something mostly to check for consistency but then I always have to readjust while shooting unsupported. 

I double check my zero with a rest, and compare that zero with my unsupported shots. Any adjustments made after that should be with the shooter.

Edited January 16, 2023 by ParrytheWind
gramma

[IVC]

15 hours ago, jimbullet said:

I managed to have a quick visit to the range the next day but didn't have enough time and thought to confirm zero by doing some slow fire bull shooting unsupported two hand shooting and the results have confused me even more. Its telling me that the  groups are high as I have my front sight right at the bottom of the white patch. But then my groups are a bit wide. This is at 15 meters

You definitely need to confirm zero. Shooting "bullseye press" and from the bench should give you the same POI (even if different group size). If you can't make it to match and you still get high impacts with only one method, have someone else shoot your gun to confirm. 
 

Isolate the problem and be systematic about it. Don't even think about technique and details until you figure out what's going on mechanically. 

[delta6]

I vote for "heeling" also. Easy to do and can be barely perceptable.

Great way to check: Go to the range, set up like you normally shoot (stance, grip, sight picture, aim), rest your trigger finger along side the frame and have a friend carefully pull the trigger for you. You will know immediately where your gun shoots and if POI changes from when you pull the trigger, you'll know it is you and not the gun.

[kurtm]

My bet is you are lifting your eyes/head to see where the shot is going. This unconscious lift will cause the shot to go high. Really concentrate on follow through and reacquire the sights after every shot and see what happens. This is the most common cause of shooting high on steel, after all it's fun to watch the steel fall. By lifting your head your eyes say.... Hey recenter that sight and the muzzle comes up and we don't even know we are. 

[jimbullet]

22 hours ago, kurtm said:

My bet is you are lifting your eyes/head to see where the shot is going. This unconscious lift will cause the shot to go high. Really concentrate on follow through and reacquire the sights after every shot and see what happens. This is the most common cause of shooting high on steel, after all it's fun to watch the steel fall. By lifting your head your eyes say.... Hey recenter that sight and the muzzle comes up and we don't even know we are. 

Thanks for the input. I'll check this out on the weekend as well. I do find myself shifting eye focus so I will keep this in check

[jimbullet]

On 4/13/2023 at 9:38 AM, kurtm said:

My bet is you are lifting your eyes/head to see where the shot is going. This unconscious lift will cause the shot to go high. Really concentrate on follow through and reacquire the sights after every shot and see what happens. This is the most common cause of shooting high on steel, after all it's fun to watch the steel fall. By lifting your head your eyes say.... Hey recenter that sight and the muzzle comes up and we don't even know we are. 

I checked this out today and it seems that Im not actually looking above my sights. I did a slower engagement on steel and what I found was I was consistently hitting about 4 inches up when engaging steel. 

 

I had to compensate aim for the lower part of the stand to actually hit the steel plate out at about 15-20 meters.

 

In having said that, the next stage with paper only at around 12 meters, it was fairly centering with all A's 3-4 inches grouping - mind you this I was gunning for speed so the groups are slightly bigger. So maybe heeling then (confused?), so how do you cure that? But if Im heeling why is it on paper fairly at the center?

 

This has me totally confused.

[jimbullet]

Actually got a question on heeling - If one is heeling the gun, does it consistently form a grouping or will it be inconsistent in the vertical shots? I also found that consistently aiming 4 inches at the stand of the plate allowed me to hit the steel plates 4 out of 4 so I was just wondering if heeling would make the shots group or not.