Problems With New 150 Federal Large Pistol Primers ?

[Shoepop]

Has as anyone (revolver shooters) experienced a problem with the new Federal large pistol primers. My revolver is giving me fits with a failure to fire approximately every 6th-10th moon clip. Up until this new lot of primers it's always been a 100%. You have to look HARD at the failed round to EVEN see where the firing pin struck it. I have checked the strain screw, firing pin and spring, nose bushing, no binding etc. I pulled the side plate and the mainspring is not knuckleing. The hammer (Randy Lee) is not rubbing. The DA trigger pull weight is what it always has been. I order primers in large quanties so same lot #. I have also tried out of a different case but same lot #. The reason I'm asking if anyone else has had a problem is that I got 200 old Federal primers from a friend and no FTF's. Did I just get a bad lot with a few very hard cups or just get lucky that the old ones did their thing? I have never tried running them around again to see if they would fire 2nd time, I have just changed clips and when I demooned at home looked at them and tossed (DUMB). I have not checked to see if it's one particular cylinder chamber. Primers are all seated well, I flatten them a bit on a 1050 just like I have done for the last 2 years. I can't buzz down to local gun shop and buy a few hundred to test because they are out of Fed's and are not going to order anytime soon. ANY opinions appreciated. Thank you.

[AzShooter]

I had a similar experience recently at one of our matches. Never had the problem before. One shooter told me to get all new brass of the same manufacturer. I ordered 1000 primed cases of Federal. No problems yet after 500 rounds.

Are all your cases the same? I've shot mixed for years but with the very light trigger I have now the slight differences seems to have cased my problem.

[Shoepop]

Az, all R&P nickel, purchased new, 6-8 times reloaded. I just got some new Starline but only loaded a few and have not tried yet. I stopped loading until I could shoot some because with the SL brass the primer is seating 0.016 deep and the old R&P was at 0.010. I figured I sure didn't need to have the primer lower at the point I'm at now with the 625. But just sitting here thinking, with as light a hit as I have been getting on the FTF rounds the difference in depth SHOULD not make a difference, but I have a bad habit of thinking to much.

[JohnRodriguez]

Mark, Sorry I could not be in el paso this weekend to get a good laugh at you, I cought the flu on thursday.

Clean out your firing pin hole for any build up. That should do the trick. I'll Try and give you a call tonight.

I'll be going to pheonix this weekend, so let Rudy know if I need to bring any bullets back for you

John

[R112mercer]

It could be throw-by. Check and see if you get the FTF's during slow fire. If it only happens when shooting real fast then it might be throw-by, when the cylinder stop is worn and fails to stop the cylinder from rotating and the pin strikes the case head.

I recently had problems getting Federal Large Pistol Primers into the pick-up tubes for the primer magazine in my XL650, they would jam up halfway up the tube. I think some of the primers may have been a little wide, the pick-up tubes looked nice and clean. Haven't had any problems with small pistol, though.

[dshooter3]

Mark you might call john from alamo and see if he has had the same problem.

[Carmoney]

I've been loading the "new" Federal primers with absolutely no problems, in fact I've been pretty much convinced it was purely a packaging change. (Sure hope that's the case!) Our local Sportsman's Warehouse stocks them, so I usually just buy a couple or three thousand at a time, so I'm fairly sure I've been using "new" inventory for awhile (I'd say I've loaded at least five thousand of the blue box stuff).

My first thought was that you've been riding the raw edge of reliability for awhile, and now something's loosened up just enough to give you misfires. That's the one problem with the super-light actions--they can start doing this to you with little or no notice, if even the slightest change occurs in the formula. (I could drop several very familiar names of Revolver shooters who have experienced clicks in my presence at major matches.....all have those radically lightened actions.....and this is the reason why I decided to stay at 5+ pounds.)

Hopefully it's just a few bad primers....

[Shoepop]

JR, I KNOW you would have laughed, that's why I didn't e-mail or call you about it! You ought to fix it for me since your the one that got me shooting them things with a piece of metal that goes round and round and you have to reload all the time;-) I did clean the FP channel and bushing it did not help. Rudy will have some bullets for me. I'll owe you one buddy. R112, I don't think it's "throw-by" because the primer does have a FAINT strike mark. Dale, good to hear from you. John shot the match with me, he didn't have a problem. At first he thought I was double clutching but after seeing I wasn't we more or less chalked it up to hard primers mainly because that's what I told him I THOUGHT it was. CM, I'm at 4#'s4oz. JR confirmed, he pulled it a month or so ago with his scale. I have been there for about 8 months now with no problems but I agree something could have very well changed enough to effect strike power and 4/4 is the ragged edge 'as far as my revolver package is concerned'. I to have been using the new package primers and have been through 5000++ with no problem so I would concur with you that it is just package change. If new primers of a different lot# don't bring positive result's I can crank her up a notch.

Edited December 14, 2005 by Shoepop

[Waltermitty]

I'll add another report of no problems with new Fed primers. But I'm not as low as some of you guys on trigger pull.

[D.carden]

WOW!!!!

4lbs-4oz.

That would feel like a flat-tire to me.....more like driving on the rim.

I tried one of those last weekend and didnt care for it. Little or no rebound / increased lock time is not my idea of a fast trigger.

You need to crank that up a notch and work on your finger strength. The primers will do fine if your not on the edge of reliability.

[hearthco]

Check for bent clips. Dave

[pskys2]

OH MAN! You're going to create MAJOR anxiety in this forum!

You must do extensive test firing until you find the problem, or maybe buy stock in Prozac, Ha!Ha!

Have you checked your headspace and B/C Gap? If there were some Stainless Shims inside the cylinder they could have fallen out on cleaning.

Have your primers been exposed to anything that could deactivate them?

Buy a new Strain Screw and install it seated all the way down so it will increase your pull.

You mentioned a Randy Lee Hammer, did he do the Action?

Check that the Strain Screw is screwed ALL the way in. I've found strain screws backed out and loc-tite'd. I cut a new one down so it stays bottomed out, then I don't loc-tite it, just check it frequently.

Find someone who has a stock 45 revolver and/or auto and see if they fire.

You must get back with us and give a full report.

Ship a flat to me if you wish and I'll test them, thoroughly!!

Dave

[Keith]

I'm still finding a mix of the red box and the new blue boxes locally. I probably shot an equal amount of both this year through my current 625 with zero ignition problems. ( it does have an 8 pound trigger, though)

[Shoepop]

I appreciate all the suggestions, thank you. Randy did the action job and it has worked flawlessly up until the last lot of primers. I just ordered some and will give them a try. In the intrim I will go through the gun again and check the areas you all suggested. If I can't find the problem and the new primers don't solve I'll crank it up. In the heat of battle so to speak adding 12oz's won't hurt my dismal shooting.

[Shoepop]

Problem solved ! I have to thank John Rodriquez (AKA JR and a few other's I can't post on a family board) He stopped over today and found the problem in less than a minute. The firing pin tip was dead flat and .011 shorter. I learned a valuable lesson, clean and inspect the channel, bushing, firing pin regularly. What happened was crud had built up over time and the FP was not retracting all the way, little by little the tip of the pin was milled down by the next round coming up into battery. Another lesson learned was that I was looking for something dramatic and overlooked the simple and obvious. I have looked @ the FP @ least 10 times. I repolished, cleaned the channel, made sure it was buttery smooth in the channel, replaced the spring. But did I catch the the obvious, short with a flat tip, NO, couldn't be something that easy! I would also like to thank Randy Lee from whom I received an unsolicited call trying to talk me through various conditions that would cause the problem. I was hung up believing it was a primer problem and we discussed that in length. I'm sure Randy assumed I had enough brains to clean the assembly regularly, NOT. Again thank you guys. So I got a great Christmas present

[underlug]

What is the most efficient way to keep the firing pin channel clean?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

What is the most efficient way to keep the firing pin channel clean?

I like a tooth brush. medium to firm. Or, q tips, pipe cleaners, anything that will get in there.

regards,

Edited December 20, 2005 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[dajarrel]

Compressed air, whether from a can or an air hose, will keep the gross dirt out. For smaller stuff and grease/oil, do like Round_Gun_Shooter said and use whatever will fit and clean the hole.

FWIW

dj

[Carmoney]

The firing pin tip was dead flat and .011 shorter.

Very glad you figured out the problem, and it's great that John and Randy were able to help with the solution. I'm going to take a wild guess here that you had one of those C&S extended-length firing pins installed in your gun. Am I right????

I know a few here will disagree, but I am completely convinced this product SUCKS ASS in a big, big, big, big way. I've tried four or five of them in various guns, with nothing but widely varying problems. They rarely (if ever) fit correctly without polishing and adjustment. Several have stuck too far through the firing pin channel without filing further relief into the retaining pin notch. The heat-treatment and hardnesss on these little turds seems to be grossly inconsistent from one specimen to the next--I had one I'm convinced was way too soft (it peened very easily, to the point of getting sticky in the channel, which I suspect is exactly what happened to yours, Shoepop), to another I'm convinced was too hard (the tip just broke right off). I've never experienced ANY of these problems with the factory firing pins. NEVER.

For six months I fooled and fooled with the C&S extended pins, convinced that they would somehow help me lighten up the action--then it finally dawned on me why it wasn't working: A long firing pin does not--cannot--hit the primer any harder than a shorter factory one, as long as the shorter factory one is long enough to transfer all its energy before bottoming out on its stop! In other words, as long as it's long enough, the shorter one will slap the primer every bit as hard. The shape of the tip may make some difference, but only if the action is lightened up right to the razor's edge of reliability, frankly. What you want is a smooth, consistent, well-polished, hard (but not too hard) firing pin that will not distort and will not break under heavy-duty usage.

Shoepop, if we're talking about a factory firing pin getting stuck in the channel, please forgive my lengthy diatribe here (although I'll stand on my opinions). I'd bet money, though, that you're referring to the C&S product.

Mike

[revchuck]

What is the most efficient way to keep the firing pin channel clean?

Go to a smoker's store and find the pipe cleaners with nylon bristles in them. They fit in both the channel and the hole.

[D.carden]

I agree Mike.

Used a few of those and they all broke at some time.

Also, i dont notice any depth increase on the primer strike point, thus making me believe that the hammer never bottoms-out on the frame after it throws.

I just finished an action job on a club members 625 and the factory FP was a tad shorter than usual but had a cone/pointed shape to it.

It fired flawlessly and the penitration on the primer was excellent !!!

[underlug]

What is the most efficient way to keep the firing pin channel clean?

Go to a smoker's store and find the pipe cleaners with nylon bristles in them. They fit in both the channel and the hole.

Sounds like the plan. Thanks

[Carmoney]

The firing pin tip was dead flat and .011 shorter....the FP was not retracting all the way, little by little the tip of the pin was milled down by the next round coming up into battery.

Imagine selling a firing pin soft enough that the tip is actually worn away by brass cases.....unbelievable these guys.

[JohnRodriguez]

The firing pin tip was dead flat and .011 shorter....the FP was not retracting all the way, little by little the tip of the pin was milled down by the next round coming up into battery.

Imagine selling a firing pin soft enough that the tip is actually worn away by brass cases.....unbelievable these guys.

What's so hard to belive??? Mark as well as myself use R-P nickel plated brass in our 625's. Add the fact that the brass also has lettering on the back of it and it's not hard to see why the firing pin wore away, nickel is harder that SS. The current generation of C&S firing pins are radiused at the base were as the first one's that came out were not. That why they would break. I've been lucky and the only one that broke on me was while I was practicing and not at a match. Right now all my revo's have the current gen C&S firing pin

[Carmoney]

Well, it's not just because the gun got dirty. This is not a pipecleaner problem, fellas.

Shoepop's C&S firing pin was sticking in its channel because (1) it had become peened and distorted because it's too soft, or (2) it was improperly sized from the start. I've also had C&S pins start sticking in the channel a couple thousand runs in. They do that. The stock factory pins do not seem to exhibit this problem, even when the guns are good 'n' dirty.

The tip on Shoepop's C&S firing pin then became flattened by soft brass cases (c'mon, the nickel's nothing but thin plating that has to remain soft enough to allow for repeated resizing, belling, and crimping of the case--ain't no way in the world that stuff's harder than the heat-treated steel specified for a firing pin on a revolver) because the C&S pin was made from steel that was far too soft for its intended use. (By the way, C&S pins are not stainless steel, they are supposedly 4140 left in the white. Then again, they're also supposed to be "drop-in".....yeah, right.)

I know my posts on this topic are pretty strongly-worded. But I do think C&S is acting horribly irresponsibly to sell these extended-length firing pins with all these problems. We're talking about our toys here--the idea that people are purchasing and installing these things in guns that might be employed for defensive purposes makes my blood run cold.

I know nothing about any different "generations" of this product, other than the C&S pins with which I've had repeated and varied troubles were all sold to me from Brownells' inventory within the past 18 months.

The risks of this product are significant, in my opinion.

And the benefits are essentially placebo.

Edited December 21, 2005 by Carmoney