Limited Optics

[RJH]

13 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

The C, D, and forever B class guys will rush over to add more crap to their guns in the hopes of doing better.  Probably half will stay there and half will go back to CO.  That'll be about it as far as crossover.

 

We'll also have an inrush of tactards, 95% of which will disappear after their first couple of matches when they can't figure out why they keep getting spanked by people with striker and DA/SA guns, no leg strap on their holster, and no IFAK/tourniquet on their belt..

 

 

 

 

He says after just buying a new gun in hopes of doing better, while also fearing the inclusion of Sao guns in his very own participation trophy division, created because people were afraid of getting beat by open guns

[Johnny_Chimpo]

30 minutes ago, RJH said:

He says after just buying a new gun in hopes of doing better

 

It's cool that you know why I bought a new pistol even thought I haven't told you.

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

It's cool that you know why I bought a new pistol even thought I haven't told you.

Maybe it's just cause you like it, kinda like some people like Sao guns. Maybe you like a division where you can shoot a dot, minor ammo, and hi cap with no penalty. Maybe there are some guys that want to do the same thing with an Sao gun, but maybe you think their opinion doesn't matter as much as yours

 

Since all pistol divisions but open are in actuality participation award divisions, I do find it comical and very hypocritical when some people try to justify "their" division as legitimate, while trying to piss on other people's opinions. To be fair,  I have been guilty of this from time to time myself, but then one day I woke up  

 

Have a good one

 

 

 

 

[RangerTrace]

I own some of the high end 2011 dot guns that might benefit from these changes.  But I'm shooting a P320 dot gun.  I don't plan on changing either.  I might have to take the mag well off to go between IDPA and USPA carry optics, but I'm sticking with the 320.  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

Since all pistol divisions but open are in actuality participation award divisions

 

 

There is no overall winner in this sport

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

There is no overall winner in this sport

 

Sure there is and everyone knows it. We just pretend so people can get their participation trophies. Everyone has an equal opportunity for HOA

 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

11 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Sure there is and everyone knows it. We just pretend so people can get their participation trophies. Everyone has an equal opportunity for HOA

 

Where do people like you get these BS fantasies from?

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Where do people like you get these BS fantasies from?

 

 

USPSA started out with no divisions. People wanted some participation awards, so divisions we're born. There has always been HOA at every match ever shot. Everyone has an equal opportunity to win HOA. 

 

What part is not true?

[Johnny_Chimpo]

15 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

USPSA started out with no divisions. People wanted some participation awards, so divisions we're born. There has always been HOA at every match ever shot. Everyone has an equal opportunity to win HOA. 

 

What part is not true?

 

The part that HOA exists.  It doesn't.  Read rule 6.2.1

 

Practiscore is not the official match results. 

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

The part that HOA exists.  It doesn't.  Read rule 6.2.1

 

Practiscore is not the official match results. 

 

HOA has been around a lot longer than practicscore. I used to look at it on easy win score all the time, before practicscore had even been invented. You can try and justify your participation award all you want, but when we go to a match we all know there's one winner. But now we have divisions and classes so we can get participation trophies. Believing otherwise is just lying to yourself. And everybody has the same opportunity for HOA and if you're not HOA it's nobody's fault but your own

[euxx]

9 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

HOA has been around a lot longer than practicscore. I used to look at it on easy win score all the time, before practicscore had even been invented. You can try and justify your participation award all you want, but when we go to a match we all know there's one winner. But now we have divisions and classes so we can get participation trophies. Believing otherwise is just lying to yourself. And everybody has the same opportunity for HOA and if you're not HOA it's nobody's fault but your own

 

You can look at anything you want. But even with PractiScore-created results is the only official ones and the ezwinscore is long gone, the hoa is not someting recognized in the rules of the sport. You can use it for bragging if that makes you feel good or as a tool ot compare your performance with other shooters, given that you do realise that each division is its own kind of game.

[RJH]

Just now, euxx said:

 

You can look at anything you want. But even with PractiScore-created results is the only official ones and the ezwinscore is long gone, the hoa is not someting recognized in the rules of the sport. You can use it for bragging if that makes you feel good or as a tool ot compare your performance with other shooters, given that you do realise that each division is its own kind of game.

 

I completely understand that it's not officially recognized, but anybody that doesn't believe that there is an overall winner of a match is lying to themselves. In the early rules of practical shooting laid down back when Jeff Cooper and others invented the game, there was no allowance for different type of guns everybody competed heads up. This is kind of my point, we have divisions now, but the divisions really are nothing more than a way for people to win participation trophy. That's fine and all but acting like HOA doesn't exist is a lie, because it does.

 

I've seen one poster on here multiple times say that HOA was created because of practicscore, my point was you've been able to see HOA long before practicscore was a thing. They're just talking off of what they think they know, rather than what actually is. So I was just trying to educate somebody in the fact that you've been able to look at HOA across divisions forever.

 

And everyone still has the same opportunity to win HOA, if they are not HOA it's their own fault. People may not like to hear that, but it's 100% true

 

[deerslayer]

38 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

HOA has been around a lot longer than practicscore. I used to look at it on easy win score all the time, before practicscore had even been invented. You can try and justify your participation award all you want, but when we go to a match we all know there's one winner. But now we have divisions and classes so we can get participation trophies. Believing otherwise is just lying to yourself. And everybody has the same opportunity for HOA and if you're not HOA it's nobody's fault but your own

If you really believe all this crap, why does including major upset you so much?

[RangerTrace]

I used to own a trophy that spoke to this.  It was a Double Tap Championship back when I tried open for a year.  I was the High LEO shooting an open gun.  

 

[RJH]

Just now, deerslayer said:

If you really believe all this crap, why does including major upset you so much?

 

Well, it's all true so yes I believe it.

 

Major doesn't necessarily upset me, it would just be bad for any new division, if the point is to actually have a new division that most people will shoot. I generally always shoot major. Usually in single stack or limited. But it's easy enough to see the writing on the wall when it comes to ammo and guns that are on the market today. If limited optics becomes a division, there are several manufacturers already making guns that would fit right in, but they're almost all made in 9 mm and not 40 or 38 super if we were going old school. The only factory guns that I even see anymore made in 40 are glock and Rock Island there might be a coupleore, but they're definitely not common. However, there are a plethora of them made from different companies and 9 mm, and of course there are custom options as well.

 

 

I said before and I'll say again, if it was all heads up, like it was originally designed, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. But there's a bunch of people who would take their ball and go home

[BritinUSA]

USPSA did not create the first divisions, IPSC did.

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

USPSA did not create the first divisions, IPSC did.

 

Fair enough

 

But USPSA was founded in 84 I think and had no divisions till about 93. Idk on ipsc, other than it was started on the 70s. Maybe you or someone can fill us in

Edited December 31, 2022 by RJH

[deerslayer]

31 minutes ago, RJH said:

But it's easy enough to see the writing on the wall when it comes to ammo and guns that are on the market today. If limited optics becomes a division, there are several manufacturers already making guns that would fit right in, but they're almost all made in 9 mm and not 40 or 38 super if we were going old school. The only factory guns that I even see anymore made in 40 are glock and Rock Island there might be a coupleore, but they're definitely not common. 

 

Well several unknown companies like Beretta, Smith and Wesson, CZ, HK, Taurus, Tango, and Springfield still make .40 guns and gun shops still have .40s for sale around here.  I see .40 ammo beside 9mm on the shelf at stores all the time.  I don't know where you get this stuff.  

Edited December 31, 2022 by deerslayer

[RJH]

Just now, deerslayer said:

 

Well several unknown companies like Beretta, Smith and Wesson, CZ, HK, Taurus, Tango, and Springfield still make .40 guns and I see .40 ammo beside 9mm on the shelf at stores all the time.  I don't know where you get this stuff.  

 

You might check on some of those. Springfield doesn't make a 40 on the XDM series anymore, and I don't think s&w list an m&p in 40. See how many new actually available guns in 40 out there. There is not many. 

 

Taurus, come on lol 

 

I think the Beretta 96 holds about 16 or 17 rounds with 140s, so not real viable, if it is even still produced 

 

Tanfos have been iffy with there 9s, I would hate to depend on them in 40

 

 

Oh yeah, how many of those 40s are Sao and optics ready? 

 

 

[deerslayer]

12 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

You might check on some of those. Springfield doesn't make a 40 on the XDM series anymore, and I don't think s&w list an m&p in 40. See how many new actually available guns in 40 out there. There is not many. 

 

Taurus, come on lol 

 

I think the Beretta 96 holds about 16 or 17 rounds with 140s, so not real viable, if it is even still produced 

 

Tanfos have been iffy with there 9s, I would hate to depend on them in 40

 

 

Oh yeah, how many of those 40s are Sao and optics ready? 

 

 

All the companies I listed have .40s on their websites.  
 

There are lots of milled guns in CO (some even claim milling makes more sense than OR) and I don’t recall seeing a SAO requirement in the LO proposal.  

[Dazhi]

15 hours ago, MikeRussell said:

Just put Prod & CO at 15 rounds, institute Limited & LO keeping all the current Ltd Div rules, get rid of L10 (provisions are already in the rules for mag ban states), leave everything else alone. Problem solved. 

 

This makes most sense even though it does touch CO.  I wish the survey form has this option to vote for. 

[RJH]

7 hours ago, deerslayer said:

All the companies I listed have .40s on their websites.  
 

There are lots of milled guns in CO (some even claim milling makes more sense than OR) and I don’t recall seeing a SAO requirement in the LO proposal.  

 

Lol. You should look at the guns on the websites listed. They are a hotbed of activity in limited shooting major right now.......

 

XD on Springfield that holds 15 or maybe 16 with 140s

 

Beretta storm or maybe 96, I quit looking I was laughing so hard 

 

Taurus LOL, you can't be serious 

 

When I put in the filter of 40 Smith & Wesson on the Smith & Wesson website it shows me 9 mm only LOL

 

Hk, I've seen one HK in about 20 years of shooting and working matches, so I'm not even clicking on that website

 

 

And while Sao is not a requirement, it is one of the main reasons for the division and the only actual reason that the guns are not allowed in carryops like they should be. If you don't understand that by now I don't think you ever will 

 

Anyway I'm off to go shoot a match. Have a good day and please don't quote me on this cause, I'm really probably not responding to this line of "thinking" anymore

 

 

 

 

 

[MikeRussell]

30 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

 

This makes most sense even though it does touch CO.  I wish the survey form has this option to vote for. 

 

I wrote it in multiple times in the comment sections on my survey. 

[MikeRussell]

14 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Lol. You should look at the guns on the websites listed. They are a hotbed of activity in limited shooting major right now.......

 

XD on Springfield that holds 15 or maybe 16 with 140s

 

While SA no longer makes a XDM in 40, the mag with Dawson base pads & Grams guts hold 20 reloadable... one of mine held 21 (9mm version holds 23 with the same setup). I don't know if anyone, other than 1 guy in IDPA that I met, that used the older XD version (or the updated Mod 2 version).

 

As far as the HK, I know one guy that was a big time HK fan and that's what he used. Just that one guy... so our experiences are similar on that one. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

9 hours ago, RJH said:

 

a fantasy division has been around a lot longer than practicscore. I used to look at it on easy win score all the time, before practicscore had even been invented. You can try and justify your participation award all you want, but when we go to a match we all know there's one winner. But now we have divisions and classes so we can get participation trophies. Believing otherwise is just lying to yourself. And everybody has the same opportunity for a fantasy division and if you're not a fantasy division it's nobody's fault but your own

 

JFC what a troll......