Limited Optics

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Practiscore Competitor app lets you look at combined divisions, anytime I shoot  a dead division I look at all the low cap combined

 

I think the idea is to put people is a division that's not dead. Not find a work around for dead divisions. 

 

When were talking about a section or area championship what is the purpose of a supporting division that isn't recognized? Maybe unrecognized divisions are getting to much recognition as it is.

 

[euxx]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

I think the idea is to put people is a division that's not dead. Not find a work around for dead divisions. 

That is what APPENDIX A2 is for.

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, euxx said:

That is what APPENDIX A2 is for.

 

That's basically never utilized. 

[RJH]

I think the reasoning in appendix a2 is what he is looking for a way around. Say you had five guys shooting single stack so that division was fine, but only two guys shooting production, it'd be nice if you could just roll those production guys right in with single stack so that everybody that wanted to shoot low cap could. Appendix a2 just says you're shooting for fun basically if there's not enough guys in your officially made by USPSA division, which kind of sucks if you've invested time, money, equipment, etc in the division that USPSA created.

 

 

As to the question of if there's not enough shooters to actually sustain a division should USPSA get rid of it, maybe that is something that should also be looked at. I've shot single stack and L10 for quite a while, but I know they have basically no participation anymore, and I would be completely fine with USPSA doing something that might help out those divisions, like maybe combining all the low caps. Hell, if that didn't work they were dead anyway so in reality not much would have changed

[Racinready300ex]

To help one division we must hurt another division. I don't think we'll ever be able to balance them, so I feel like tweaking the rules to move shooters around is kind of like a dog chasing it's tail. Maybe we should just let some things go away. 

 

 

[euxx]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

think the reasoning in appendix a2 is what he is looking for a way around. Say you had five guys shooting single stack so that division was fine, but only two guys shooting production, it'd be nice if you could just roll those production guys right in with single stack so that everybody that wanted to shoot low cap could. Appendix a2 just says you're shooting for fun basically if there's not enough guys in your officially made by USPSA division, which kind of sucks if you've invested time, money, equipment, etc in the division that USPSA created.

The MD can pass on acting at "unrecognized divisions" as per 6.2.2 or he can act on it using rule 6.2.5:

Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor’s equipment.If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

You can't put Prod competitors into SS division, but you can put both Prod and SS into the Limited one.
 

1 hour ago, RJH said:

As to the question of if there's not enough shooters to actually sustain a division should USPSA get rid of it, maybe that is something that should also be looked at. I've shot single stack and L10 for quite a while, but I know they have basically no participation anymore

The L10 and the Prod are the special ones. They allow participants from the states with capacity laws to compete competitively. Kind of...

Edited January 3, 2023 by euxx

[Racinready300ex]

Most people I know from restricted states use hi-cap mags when out of state. They either borrow them, or block/unblock the capacity of their mags, or just break the law. Their choice really. Within their state everyone competes with 10 round mags no matter the division. 

 

So I don't see a real need for 10 round divisions to cater to restricted states. I get some people just like reloading a lot. 

[MikeBurgess]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think the idea is to put people is a division that's not dead. Not find a work around for dead divisions. 

 

When were talking about a section or area championship what is the purpose of a supporting division that isn't recognized? Maybe unrecognized divisions are getting to much recognition as it is.

 

I agree, unfortunately that doesn't seem to happen.

I specifically changed out of Revolver for an area match because there were not enough entrants, then watched the winner get a super cool award.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

53 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Most people I know from restricted states use hi-cap mags when out of state. They either borrow them, or block/unblock the capacity of their mags, or just break the law. Their choice really. Within their state everyone competes with 10 round mags no matter the division. 

 

So I don't see a real need for 10 round divisions to cater to restricted states. I get some people just like reloading a lot. 

 

Yeah I'm not sure why this is a mystery to anyone.  Between that and 3.3.1, 10 round divisions have no reason to exist.

[MHicks]

Some people would like LO only if they include major/minor scoring. Have enough shooters shot major with a slide mounted optic to determine the reliabilty of them being used with major ammo. Obviously Open guns are frame mounted.

[euxx]

6 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Most people I know from restricted states use hi-cap mags when out of state. They either borrow them, or block/unblock the capacity of their mags, or just break the law. Their choice really. Within their state everyone competes with 10 round mags no matter the division. 

 

So I don't see a real need for 10 round divisions to cater to restricted states. I get some people just like reloading a lot. 

Yeah, especially the "break the law" part of it...

But 10 round divisions is a different kind of game and reloading is part of the challenge. It will be very unfortunate for Production division to go away.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

35 minutes ago, euxx said:

Yeah, especially the "break the law" part of it...

But 10 round divisions is a different kind of game and reloading is part of the challenge. It will be very unfortunate for Production division to go away.

 

SMH

[BritinUSA]

Many years ago I ran a Beven Grans modified Docter red-dot on the slide of a Tanfoglio Open gun, and before that on a Commander-length 2011.

 

I think the scope lasted about 18 months on each gun, this was well over 10 years ago. The scopes are significantly better now.

[Racinready300ex]

8 hours ago, euxx said:

Yeah, especially the "break the law" part of it...

But 10 round divisions is a different kind of game and reloading is part of the challenge. It will be very unfortunate for Production division to go away.

 

I can think of two guys from a restricted state, both shoot PCC. I shot a match with them in A6 last year and after the match one was blocking his mags before going home and the other was like F-it I know the risks and I take my chances. He's a big boy, he can choose that if he wants. But there is no requirement to break to law. 

 

I do get that a small minority of people like 10 round divisions. 

[Racinready300ex]

7 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Many years ago I ran a Beven Grans modified Docter red-dot on the slide of a Tanfoglio Open gun, and before that on a Commander-length 2011.

 

I think the scope lasted about 18 months on each gun, this was well over 10 years ago. The scopes are significantly better now.

 

How many rounds where you shooting a year back then? I tend to think of round count vs time when talking about durability. I know guys that have broken a dozen dots in the last few years. I've only broken 5 so far. I've yet to have a optic last 10k rounds on the slide.

[euxx]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

I can think of two guys from a restricted state, both shoot PCC. I shot a match with them in A6 last year and after the match one was blocking his mags before going home and the other was like F-it I know the risks and I take my chances. He's a big boy, he can choose that if he wants. But there is no requirement to break to law. 

 

I do get that a small minority of people like 10 round divisions. 

You are relaying what you've seen other competitors were doing. I have first-hand experience with that. If you count the capacity-restricted states, it probably won't be a small minority.

And even if people don't like them, they have to live and deal with that - in many aspects. Including subconscious reflexes and muscle memory related to reloading after 10 rounds... People from the high capacity state have no idea how is that.
 

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, euxx said:

You are relaying what you've seen other competitors were doing. I have first-hand experience with that. If you count the capacity-restricted states, it probably won't be a small minority.

And even if people don't like them, they have to live and deal with that - in many aspects. Including subconscious reflexes and muscle memory related to reloading after 10 rounds... People from the high capacity state have no idea how is that.
 

 

People who can properly visualize, stage plan and train wont have issue with "muscle memory" related reloads. I've shot plenty of low cap and never had that issue. 

 

It's vary clear based on participation of low capacity divisions that the majority of people do not want to shoot them. If we eliminated L10 or increased the capacity of production, nothing would change for those people living in low cap states. They would continue to load 10 rounds in production and they'd just shoot limited with 10 rounds instead of shooting L10 with 10 rounds. Many of them already do this. 

 

Several states around me are capacity restricted so I'm familiar with how it works. 

 

 

[MHicks]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

How many rounds where you shooting a year back then? I tend to think of round count vs time when talking about durability. I know guys that have broken a dozen dots in the last few years. I've only broken 5 so far. I've yet to have a optic last 10k rounds on the slide.

 

Was this shooting major or minor?

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, MHicks said:

 

Was this shooting major or minor?

 

All of my dots have broken shooting minor. I've broken 1-SRO, 1-507C, 1-RTS2, 1-RomeoXL and a s#!tty tru-glow. 

 

That RTS2 survived probably close to 10k on a framed mount then moved to a slide and 400 rounds later the lens came out. 

[MHicks]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

All of my dots have broken shooting minor. I've broken 1-SRO, 1-507C, 1-RTS2, 1-RomeoXL and a s#!tty tru-glow. 

 

That RTS2 survived probably close to 10k on a framed mount then moved to a slide and 400 rounds later the lens came out. 

 

Thanks. Wow! That's a lot. I'm just curious because as I've mentioned I'm just getting set up for CO with no experience with optics. Starting with an SRO.

[ChuckS]

6 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

How many rounds where you shooting a year back then? I tend to think of round count vs time when talking about durability. I know guys that have broken a dozen dots in the last few years. I've only broken 5 so far. I've yet to have a optic last 10k rounds on the slide.

I used to shoot 2 guns in 40 Open with Beven's Docter sights. I was a low volume shooter with less than 10 K round per year. They lasted for some years. But, the important thing to keep in mind, is that Beven totally rebuilt the sights. He took them completely apart, made the light sensor hole bigger for better response, redid what connections needed it and then potted the entire assembly as he put it back together. A generic off the shelf Docter would last about 3000 rounds at that time...

[Racinready300ex]

39 minutes ago, MHicks said:

 

Thanks. Wow! That's a lot. I'm just curious because as I've mentioned I'm just getting set up for CO with no experience with optics. Starting with an SRO.

 

Most people swear by SRO's, and they do seem pretty good. I have seen several fail, one failed on a guy in my squad last weekend. I don't know why, but it seems like CZ's break a lot of optics. I know one guy who's broken several on a shadow 2 with a lightened slide. Maybe the steel frame mixed with high slide speed kills them faster. Maybe just a lot of people run SRO's and CZ's so I just see more breaking.

 

So far only one of mine has died in a match, zeroed the first stage on a sectional. 

 

IMO, if you're going to shoot CO and travel to majors you must have a back up optic. Better is probably a back up gun, and maybe 3rd optic.

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

I used to shoot 2 guns in 40 Open with Beven's Docter sights. I was a low volume shooter with less than 10 K round per year. They lasted for some years. But, the important thing to keep in mind, is that Beven totally rebuilt the sights. He took them completely apart, made the light sensor hole bigger for better response, redid what connections needed it and then potted the entire assembly as he put it back together. A generic off the shelf Docter would last about 3000 rounds at that time...

 

Maybe that's a service someone needs to bring back. I guess the draw back is if you have someone do that, you'll loose your warranty.

 

The nice thing all my optics have been replaced under warranty so far. The one time I had one fail at a section match on my first stage I basically lost more then that SRO was worth. Figure, $150 match fee, $150 hotel, gas, food, ammo etc. Then it took 3 months to get it fixed so I had to buy another SRO in the mean time.

 

I for sure have a love, hate relationship with optics lol. 

[euxx]

4 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

People who can properly visualize, stage plan and train wont have issue with "muscle memory" related reloads. I've shot plenty of low cap and never had that issue. 

 

I am talking of the other way around. Bottom line - you have to train specifically for bot cases and it takes some time to switch back and forth and people who don't have to switch have some advantage.

 

4 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

It's vary clear based on participation of low capacity divisions that the majority of people do not want to shoot them. If we eliminated L10 or increased the capacity of production, nothing would change for those people living in low cap states. They would continue to load 10 rounds in production and they'd just shoot limited with 10 rounds instead of shooting L10 with 10 rounds. Many of them already do this. 

 

Not sure what exactly that is clear from... Looking at the results from non-capacity restricted states does not prove anything. Even area matches tend to be hosted in non-restricted states, even the same area includes states with capacity restrictions.

But really, what exactly you want to achieve by increasing Production capacity? What is wrong with existing 10 round capacity? Other than people not willing to learn to do these damn reloads...
 

[Racinready300ex]

30 minutes ago, euxx said:

Not sure what exactly that is clear from... Looking at the results from non-capacity restricted states does not prove anything. Even area matches tend to be hosted in non-restricted states, even the same area includes states with capacity restrictions.
 

 

Certainly looking at results from capacity restricted states doesn't prove people want to shoot low cap. Given the choice in free states people choose hi cap way more than low cap. This proves that giving the option people want more ammo. Here in the North East a lot of shooters leave there restricted low cap states to be free and shoot real divisions. Hemple is out of Jersey and crushes everyone there in CO-10 then comes to free states and does the same in real CO. 

 

If we moved Area 8 to NJ and 100% of the shooters shot 10 rounds do you think that would prove people like low cap? That's just silly.

 

32 minutes ago, euxx said:

But really, what exactly you want to achieve by increasing Production capacity? What is wrong with existing 10 round capacity? Other than people not willing to learn to do these damn reloads...
 

 

I don't really care if they change Production or not TBH. But increasing the capacity would boost participation with out a doubt. Even if all it's doing is stealing all the L-minor guys, but it will grow. I'm sure some CO shooters would be happy to have a hi-cap 9mm division where they wont break expensive optics. 

 

The last match I shot only had 1 production shooter. Most of the time that match has 0-3 production shooters. The division is essentially dead even up here around all these ban states where it should be popular.