X5 is back

[RJH]

Hi powers would be another cool one to shoot if CO allowed sao guns. 

[RJH]

2 hours ago, Nathanb said:

Thank god you said this. These guys can shoot anything. I’ve watched super squad guys pick up random guns and shoot like they have 100k pulls on it. Some people are just better and those examples are cases where they can shoot anything and be better. 

 

So talent defines who wins and not the gun, who woulda thunk it 

[Nathanb]

15 hours ago, RJH said:

 

So talent defines who wins and not the gun, who woulda thunk it 

I don’t think that’s ever been in question doesn’t mean some don’t like to buy new guns in the hopes of performance improvements.  I’m in that camp for sure. 

[RJH]

2 hours ago, Nathanb said:

I don’t think that’s ever been in question doesn’t mean some don’t like to buy new guns in the hopes of performance improvements.  I’m in that camp for sure. 

 

[Sigarmsp226]

Osage County Guns have these new US X5’s listed for $2199.00

 

OCG is one of SIG’s larger direct sales providers so I tend to believe this information is accurate. I have purchased more than ten SIG pistols from John and Brad at OCG’s over the years - Very Good People in my book. SIG confirmed that guns started shipping out to dealers/distributors late last week and should start appearing in the various market places very soon.

 

https://osagecountyguns.com/blog/the-sig-sauer-p226-x-five-is-back.html

 

Also - Someone very close to The SIG PRoduct Development and Marketing Management leaders, has confirmed that SIG will be releasing a DA/SA version (Allround) of these models in the near future (no time frame identified yet). He was told that the DA/SA is actually an easier pistol to build vs. the SA version. 
 

Just passing on what was shared with me as I want the DA/SA version.

[Racinready300ex]

On 10/8/2022 at 4:43 PM, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

 

The point here is people whining about not being able to use their single action pistols in CO.  Buy a pistol that meets the rules instead of whining about your pet gun not being allowed.

 

 

100% This.

 

I don't really care what the rules are, but at some point we need a line in the sand where we say "no if you want to play go buy the gear you need" we're chasing our tails trying to appease everyone and we wont win. In fact, we'll likely end up with something no one really wanted and the sport could suffer for it. 

[bulldog009]

3 hours ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

Osage County Guns have these new US X5’s listed for $2199.00

 

OCG is one of SIG’s larger direct sales providers so I tend to believe this information is accurate. I have purchased more than ten SIG pistols from John and Brad at OCG’s over the years - Very Good People in my book. SIG confirmed that guns started shipping out to dealers/distributors late last week and should start appearing in the various market places very soon.

 

https://osagecountyguns.com/blog/the-sig-sauer-p226-x-five-is-back.html

 

Also - Someone very close to The SIG Product Development and Marketing Management leaders, has confirmed that SIG will be releasing a DA/SA version (Allround) of these models in the near future (no time frame identified yet). He was told that the DA/SA is actually an easier pistol to build vs. the SA version. 
 

Just passing on what was shared with me as I want the DA/SA version.

Good info here. I'm hoping they do release a DA/SA version of it. I don't shoot a lot of USPSA, mostly 3 gun, but I would like the option if I wanted to start playing in the current state of CO - possible future divisions not withstanding! 

[GigG]

On 10/8/2022 at 6:45 AM, Joe4d said:

A few mods ? are you kidding me ? It is already limited rules, scored minor with a completely irrational exclusion of external single actions. 
Honestly a minor limited optics in addition to Co,, makes no sense to me , Then again alot of the rulings from USPSA dont either

 

Yes a few mods.  No mag well, Slide ride optics only. No external modifications.

 

Minor isn't a division it is an ammo choice and one artificially forced on CO and Production.  There's no reason in the world other than the artificial limitation that a .40 CO gun shouldn't be able to shoot Major. 

[Boomstick303]

Comical, in the same post.

 

On 10/8/2022 at 2:43 PM, Johnny_Chimpo said:

The even bigger point is that you can't buy points.  Not with the finest trigger in the world, nor with the smallest group out of a 320 from a Ransom Rest.

 

Then........

 

On 10/8/2022 at 2:43 PM, Johnny_Chimpo said:

The point here is people whining about not being able to use their single action pistols in CO.  Buy a pistol that meets the rules instead of whining about your pet gun not being allowed.

 

So what does it matter which guns the organization allows in USPSA, if you can't buy points?  It is a valid question.

 

Why does the Board at USPSA make incremental changes in the rule sets to appease anyone or any new piece of equipment?   It is to garner a larger membership for the organization.  Today, there are so many options with greater round capacity, its utterly stupid to limit round counts to 10 rounds.  Just as stupid as limiting any gun from participating in certain divisions.  Just about every gun comes in a version that is optic ready.  Allowing more guns to play/less gear restrictions = a larger membership period.   

 

Make one final rule change based on capacity, size and weight of a gun.  Maybe specifics like magwells, compensators, and how the optic is mounted to dictate divisions and be done with these incremental rule changes.  This allows just about any type of gun to play in division specified by the aforementioned characteristics.

 

You keep bringing up the fact that CZ guns are SA after the first shot.  So by your definition there are SA guns already allowed in CO?   How much does of a difference in score does 5-6 DA trigger pulls make in the course of a local match or 10-24 trigger pulls make in the course of a Level II or up match?  Not much according to you, so why maintain the stance to prevent SA guns from certain divisions? 

 

Makes a lot of sense if you don't think about it.  

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Boomstick303

[RJH]

49 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

Comical, in the same post.

 

 

Then........

 

 

So what does it matter which guns the organization allows in USPSA, if you can't buy points?  It is a valid question.

 

Why does the Board at USPSA make incremental changes in the rule sets to appease anyone or any new piece of equipment?   It is to garner a larger membership for the organization.  Today, there are so many options with greater round capacity, its utterly stupid to limit round counts to 10 rounds.  Just as stupid as limiting any gun from participating in certain divisions.  Just about every gun comes in a version that is optic ready.  Allowing more guns to play/less gear restrictions = a larger membership period.   

 

Make one final rule change based on capacity, size and weight of a gun.  Maybe specifics like magwells, compensators, and how the optic is mounted to dictate divisions and be done with these incremental rule changes.  This allows just about any type of gun to play in division specified by the aforementioned characteristics.

 

You keep bringing up the fact that CZ guns are SA after the first shot.  So by your definition there are SA guns already allowed in CO?   How much does of a difference in score does 5-6 DA trigger pulls make in the course of a local match or 10-24 trigger pulls make in the course of a Level II or up match.  Not much according to you, so why maintain the stance to prevent SA guns from certain divisions? 

 

Makes a lot of sense if you don't think about it.  

 

 

 

 

You are correct. Basically what all these boil down to is that someone bought a gun that they thought was The ultimate gamer gun and now they're afraid there's a new ultimate gamer gun that will now make their old ultimate gamer gun obsolete. 

 

Meanwhile they're still getting destroyed by canik

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, GigG said:

 

Yes a few mods.  No mag well, Slide ride optics only. No external modifications.

 

Minor isn't a division it is an ammo choice and one artificially forced on CO and Production.  There's no reason in the world other than the artificial limitation that a .40 CO gun shouldn't be able to shoot Major. 

 

I don't think anyone really wants to shoot major in CO. But if you allow it you're basically forcing it. 

[Racinready300ex]

56 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

You are correct. Basically what all these boil down to is that someone bought a gun that they thought was The ultimate gamer gun and now they're afraid there's a new ultimate gamer gun that will now make their old ultimate gamer gun obsolete. 

 

Meanwhile they're still getting destroyed by canik

 

You're not wrong. And there is also the people who bought the ultimate gamer gun that isn't legal so they want the rules changed so their obsolete gun isn't obsolete anymore. You can look at that as punishing those who followed the rules.

 

But there is a risk with these kind of moves. Maybe they grow the sport that's what we're hoping. Maybe they piss people off and they leave the sport. I'm sure both will happen to some extent. 

 

I know people that stopped shooting revolver because of the change to 8 shots. I also know a few that quit IDPA because they changed equipment rules too. So it's certainly a thing. 

 

[mikeAZ]

I don't see that a double action "start" has either advantages or disadvantages over single action starts?.... Single action would certainly bring more pistols into the CO "game"  and maybe some very competitive, lower priced models (under $1000.00 MRSP?).... Heaven forbid, a $600.00 hammer gun capable of winning matches?..  What's next?... A man on the moon??.

[GigG]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

I don't think anyone really wants to shoot major in CO. But if you allow it you're basically forcing it. 

 

If I could shoot a .40 in CO and make major I would.  Hell, I'd shoot major 9.

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

If I could shoot a .40 in CO and make major I would.  Hell, I'd shoot major 9.

 

I'm sure if you could shoot major in CO most people would. That's not the same as them wanting too. That's what I mean by if you allow it, you force it. Because if it's allowed it's such a big scoring advantage that you'd have to use it if you're serious. 

 

I don't want to shoot 40 anymore, so if they allowed 40 major in CO I'd stop shooting that division. 

[NOSHMJ]

 I just snatched one of these X5s up the other day. It shoots as soft and flat as my 2011 9mm I use for 3 gun.  This gun will have a great use in that sport, or even in 2 gun.   USPSA isnt the only shooting sport out there..  However for USPSA, open is the only way to go.  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

10 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

So what does it matter which guns the organization allows in USPSA, if you can't buy points?  It is a valid question.

 

I'll tell you why it matters.  Allowing SAO pistols in CO will create yet another gear race.

 

It doesn't matter if those guns offer an advantage or not.  It will be the new hotness and it will be even more difficult to convince newer shooters that the gun isn't a barrier to entry.

 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

11 hours ago, GigG said:

 

There's no reason in the world other than the artificial limitation that a .40 CO gun shouldn't be able to shoot Major. 

 

There's plenty of reason to keep major out of CO.  If it becomes allowed it will become the ONLY choice to remain competitive.

 

If that's what you want, open is open.

[X5SigChris]

8 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

another gear race

I think in some aspect, there is always going to be a gear race though. For example, the 320 x5 thumb rest. There’s three brands that come to mind and each one seems to have built up on the backs of the one prior coming out with a “better” product. In terms of money, sure it’s a much smaller piece of the pie than a whole new gun but it’s still gear hunting for that little bit of an edge. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

26 minutes ago, X5SigChris said:

I think in some aspect, there is always going to be a gear race

 

The gear race is as much or as little as the regulations permit. 

 

The usual excuse for deregulating many aspects of CO and Production handguns is that "we can't tell what's OEM and what's not".  To some extent (internal parts) that is a valid argument.  Making CO guns fit a box similar to what IDPA uses (with a cutout for the optic to stick through) would make it very easy to regulate many of the dumb external things that are now allowed without having to know if they are OEM or not.

 

I used to think that gear and pistol makers weren't driving a lot of this crap but now I'm not sure.

[X5SigChris]

1 hour ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

The gear race is as much or as little as the regulations permit. 

This is absolutely true. If you offer an inch, we will take that inch. If you offer us a mile, we will run with that as well. 

 

1 hour ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I used to think that gear and pistol makers weren't driving a lot of this crap but now I'm not sure.

And not to stray away from the topic…. I believe this absolutely drives the org as a whole. In rules, in divisions, in everything. It’s both good and bad in my opinion 

[Boomstick303]

12 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

I'll tell you why it matters.  Allowing SAO pistols in CO will create yet another gear race.

 

I keep hearing this gear race argument.  IF that is the case how is not 80-100% of guns in CO are not CZs then?  This Includes production which is supposed to be the organizations "Stock" division where one can also choose to buy the "TOP" gun which institutes an SA trigger after the first shot.  CZ's exist and yet the top shooters use plastic guns and WIN.  

 

What do you mean "another gear race"?  Point to another division where there is a "Gear race".

 

Its not my concern if any other shooter thinks they can "buy" points.  

 

Its stupid to not allow SAO guns in any division.  Its your opinion it would create a gear race.  Not everyone shares your opinion.  

Edited October 11, 2022 by Boomstick303

[GigG]

17 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'm sure if you could shoot major in CO most people would. That's not the same as them wanting too. That's what I mean by if you allow it, you force it. Because if it's allowed it's such a big scoring advantage that you'd have to use it if you're serious. 

 

I don't want to shoot 40 anymore, so if they allowed 40 major in CO I'd stop shooting that division. 

 

The fact that you can't get major points in Prod/CO is a completely made up thing though. A stock .40 can make major with stock ammo. If you are going to arbitrarily make a Division shoot minor you might as well just do away with Maj/Min throughout the sport completely.  

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

The fact that you can't get major points in Prod/CO is a completely made up thing though. A stock .40 can make major with stock ammo. If you are going to arbitrarily make a Division shoot minor you might as well just do away with Maj/Min throughout the sport completely.  

 

All divisions and rules are arbitrary we have to draw a line so we do. If you want to shoot major just shoot limited, that's what it's there for. You have to realize that lots of people don't want to shoot 40 major. Probably why CO is so popular today, Hicap minor only. It still makes sense to keep Limited around with major scoring as there are people like you who still want to shoot 40. 

 

I was pretty good at limited and SS shooting major. I made G with a match bump. But, since I stopped shooting 40 major I don't have shooters elbow and my hands don't bother me. On top of that 9mm is cheaper. I don't have any interest in going back to shooting major all the time.

 

[Boomstick303]

As interesting as it would be to see a major option in CO, or similar division variation in the future say like Limited Optics, I think it would serve the sport better to keep them minor.  

 

I think it would ruin CO if major was allowed as currently constituted.