Tips for determining spring weight to use?

[Twilk73]

So I got a dpm spring kit coming for an archon type b and I’m wondering about how I go about figuring out which spring to use. I do own a mantis x10 so I think I can use that for graphing. 
 

Should I be looking at ejection? I want the spring rate that helps me recover the fastest for fallow up shots correct?

 

 Any tips for a newbie like me are appreciated, thank you. 

[Ben53]

I usually set up my recoil spring so the cartridges are ejected about 5' plus or minus.  This gets me in the ballpark usually, and then, if necessary, a small tweak for recoil management.  YMMV.

[StefVanHauwe]

Try them all for approx 25-50 shots each to experience how the gun behaves in recoil and also how it feels to you. Take notes. Mounting striped paper and filming the gun from the side can also give you valuable information on recoil.

[Twilk73]

9 hours ago, StefVanHauwe said:

Try them all for approx 25-50 shots each to experience how the gun behaves in recoil and also how it feels to you. Take notes. Mounting striped paper and filming the gun from the side can also give you valuable information on recoil.

Excellent, I can do all of that. Thanks both of you. 

[obsessiveshooter]

As long as it functions reliably, your front sight should tell you everything. Gunsmith types that need to worry about warranty stuff tell you to look at ejection distance.  As competitors, we care more about performance.  Stef is right- once you get close, slow motion video is needed to see the slight differences in rise and dip. You'll run up against safety and reliability issues with most striker fired guns before you get to an ideal recoil spring weight.  At least with Glock type guns, which the archon is I believe, the striker spring works opposite the recoil spring, so if you put something like a 9lb recoil spring in, the striker spring would keep the slide from fully closing.  Even though 9lb would probably be ideal for 9mm. I think most glock type pistols need around at least a 13lb recoil spring to be able to function properly.  

[Twilk73]

So I forgot dang near everything but I think I was able to figure it out. I used a shot timer to record splits from a string of 10 shots. I did this four times for each spring and recorded the average of the last eight shots in each string, I automatically eliminated the first two shots and sometimes eliminated an outlier. After this I went back and did each spring three more times. The one spring was obviously working better for me. I mean all my splits where in the 20’s with one spring while the other two springs had some splits in the .30’s. 
 

So essentially I shot each spring 70 rounds and recorded my splits for an average to see which one was working better for me. The one that had better splits did seem to be more controllable in the end. At first they all just seemed the same even though the splits where closer to each other and more reparable with one spring. But in the second run through I noticed the difference mentally as everything just seemed faster and smoother with the medium spring. 
 

Oddly the stock spring and the lightest spring netted me the same average split times. However, the lightest spring shot group was the best of all three springs. Not by much though. The medium spring got me an average of .02 of a second faster lol. While that doesn’t seem like much the split times where more closely matched with that spring and just seemed to be more repeatable and controllable. I feel like I can do better with this spring with more practice. My rhythm with the medium spring felt very good and the splits matched that. 
 

The accuracy I was judging all this at was 10 yard a zone hits on an idpa target. I didn’t do anything to account for b zone hits and I wish I would have counted them or something. I’m going to run this test again. And count my b zone hits to see if it matters. At that distance the misses where very few anyway. But it probably still would have been good info. 

[JayDee]

I just did this today to test springs for major and minor loads in the same gun. For each load I tested 3 recoil springs. I did not have access to slomo video so I tested like this…
 

I tried to shoot two into an Azone at around 7 yards as fast as I could with a good sight picture and noted how far apart the shots were. Noting front sight position after a round was fired I was trying for the spring that put my front sight back on target the closest. 
 

I then shot a plate rack to verify. Sure enough, after the first test, the spring that delivered the front sight closest to the POA (and also the closest two shots) gave me the best time cleaning the plate rack. 

[ShredderTactical]

On 8/5/2022 at 11:06 PM, JayDee said:

I just did this today to test springs for major and minor loads in the same gun. For each load I tested 3 recoil springs. I did not have access to slomo video so I tested like this…
 

I tried to shoot two into an Azone at around 7 yards as fast as I could with a good sight picture and noted how far apart the shots were. Noting front sight position after a round was fired I was trying for the spring that put my front sight back on target the closest. 
 

I then shot a plate rack to verify. Sure enough, after the first test, the spring that delivered the front sight closest to the POA (and also the closest two shots) gave me the best time cleaning the plate rack. 

That's a great test and some good data!  Some would say you can do the same thing by modifying your grip, stance, or body posture.  If you can get results like this by changing springs, or other hardware, it seems logical you can shoot more relaxed and are able deliver better overall performance.

[CC3D]

Take a slow mo video on your phone. Use progressively lighter springs until you get 0 muzzle dip as the slide returns.

 

Return to zero > arbitrary ejection distance

 

I struggled with the ejection distance thing for a while but came to terms with it- you're not going to hurt your gun

[fraizer15]

I use a method similar to ShredderTactical except I use a 10 to 15 yard distance. 
 

[GMM50]

I've seen open shooters just tune the spring by measuring vertical spread on a double tap on paper.

It was clear which spring gave better results,  The comp and red dot also played a big part in the testing.

[crg]

I'm struggling with muzzle dip on my unmodified shadow 2. I shoot factory ammo, power factor around 145 to 155 depending on brand according to velocities on the box. If I shoot rapid doubles from 10 yards I will shoot two distinct and consistent groups, one at my point of aim and one about a foot below it. It's more pronounced with the higher pf ammo (Fiocchi vs Norma/S&B). I'm a relatively inexperienced shooter so I assumed the issue is my grip. After messing around a lot I found I can reduce/eliminate the dip but it feels very unnatural and results in the muzzle coming back down to my point of aim slower.

 

After doing a lot of reading I'm thinking a lighter recoil spring might be a solution, but it seems that most people are using them combined with much lower pf (around 130) reloads. Does it make sense to try a lighter spring with factory ammo or should I suck it up and keep working on my grip?

[CC3D]

1 hour ago, crg said:

suck it up and keep working on my grip

This first. It's hard to say without seeing what your recoil control actually looks like, but if you're a newer shooter it's likely your grip. Yes, lower pf ammo and lighter springs will help with your current problem but it will likely be a bandaid fix to a larger problem

[crg]

57 minutes ago, CC3D said:

This first. It's hard to say without seeing what your recoil control actually looks like, but if you're a newer shooter it's likely your grip. Yes, lower pf ammo and lighter springs will help with your current problem but it will likely be a bandaid fix to a larger problem

 

That's what I was thinking. I've come a long way in eliminating muzzle flip since the beginning of the season but I still don't shoot 'flat' by any means. If it's any help here's a video of me shooting where you can just about see the muzzle dipping but the quality isn't great. This was shooting 152 pf ammo.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by crg

[CC3D]

So camera angles make it difficult to tell recoil some times, but this looks pretty decent. I'm seeing some "porpoising" of your muzzle which may be contributing to the spread you're noticing. Some people fix this by loosening their firing hand and applying adequate pressure with their support hand. 

 

That being said, a side profile slow motion video on your iPhone is the best thing you can do to diagnose these issues. Keep trying to improve your grip and record it in slow motion to see what is working best.

 

You may benefit from a lighter spring, but if shooting factory ammo dont go too low. Better yet, get a press and start shooting competition loads. 

[crg]

39 minutes ago, CC3D said:

So camera angles make it difficult to tell recoil some times, but this looks pretty decent. I'm seeing some "porpoising" of your muzzle which may be contributing to the spread you're noticing. Some people fix this by loosening their firing hand and applying adequate pressure with their support hand. 

 

That being said, a side profile slow motion video on your iPhone is the best thing you can do to diagnose these issues. Keep trying to improve your grip and record it in slow motion to see what is working best.

 

You may benefit from a lighter spring, but if shooting factory ammo dont go too low. Better yet, get a press and start shooting competition loads. 

 

Thank you for the input, I will definitely try that out and take some slow motion video next time I'm at the range before I go messing with the springs.

[pjb45]

An old time USPSA shooter told me his trick:

 

1. Put a dummy round in the chamber
2. Pull the slide and lock it back
3. Grip the gun like your are shooting
4. Engage the slide lock and release the slide
5. Estimate how far the gun dips as it is slammed forward

I used that method to estimate my spring weight.

I then tested several different weights on a plate rack exercise.

After a few hundred/thousand rounds check your frame for damage.

Most guns, IMO are over sprung.

 

I dropped my SS 9MM to 12.5 lbs. Less dipping of the gun, splits are faster---match facts not practice engagements.

I will try a 10 lbs later this week.

 

Tungsten guide rod, VV320, 125 Zeros and a PF of 132.  

 

 

[CC3D]

Prop up iPhone 

Take slow motion video

If gun dips, lighter spring

Repeat until no dip

[WDG710]

I used "CC3D" Method -  Take a slow mo video on your phone. Use progressively lighter springs until you get the ;east amount of muzzle movement - very good method!