ShredderTactical

The Echelon really is a game changer! Enough to get my attention after shooting two Glock 17 Gen 4 MOS pistols (one primary and one backup) for about the last seven years in USPSA CO, ever since CO was just a provisional division. So, I've been playing with and modifying my Glocks in almost every way trying to customize them to fit me and perform as competition pistols. I love my Glocks, but really wished for something with a better trigger design and better frame ergonomics. I bought an Echelon and have been shooting it now for the past few months and have a couple thousand rounds and a few matches under my belt. I put a PRP trigger in it and It has met and exceeded my expectations for a striker fired pistol. I hope we see more parts and after market support to make it even better!

I'll be driving down to the Houston, TX area from North Carolina, visiting my with my three grandkids (age 9, 11, and 13) I have not seen in a few years. Plan to spend a couple weeks with them and looking for a good range or location to take them to provide a day of shooting instruction and fun. I have plenty of guns, ammo, targets, and range supplies I can bring, not fond of all the potential safety issues with other careless shooters and restrictions found at most public shooting ranges. Willing to drive 100-200 miles if needed for a good location. Public or private land where I have permission, or a club where I can get an open bay for a day would be great. I've got many years of experience training and shooting USPSA, Steel Challenge, and other competitions. Time to pass on some knowledge to a new generation and see if they have any interest in getting involved in a particular shooting sport. Any suggestions?

Built and worked on more than a few AR's in my time. Having been a long range competition shooter, and now more focus on practical accuracy (accuracy vs. speed), accuracy is always a key consideration for me. In my experience you really need to use a barrel that has a 1 MOA guarantee from the manufacturer, otherwise you remain at the mercy of hit or miss quality of a particular barrel. Also, if you care about squeezing out maximum accuracy on any AR platform, the barrel should be installed such that there is zero barrel wiggle or play even before the barrel nut is installed. So, the barrel extension should be matched to the upper receiver. I like to use shim stock if needed, then use a thermo-press fit technique when the barrel receives final insertion into the upper receiver. Some folks use Green Locktite on the barrel extension to lock it in place, but this can cause more problems especially if you ever need to change the barrel down the road. Some folks think they can just watch a few YouTube videos and they can build good good quality Glock's or AR's from a pile of parts they bought off the Internet. Fact is it takes years of study and some skill to consistently build good quality finished products. Notice I did say consistently. Just a few ramblings and ideas...good luck with your build and enjoy!!!

Here's an idea... Try adjusting the dot the opposite direction from what you have been. Optics have an elevation adjustment that adjusts the Point of Impact up or down. Not sure what you mean when you say you have the dot "maxed out as high as it will go"??? If you have the gun in some type of bench rest and don't really understand how optic adjustments work, it is possible you are looking at the dot go in the up direction as you make adjustments. If this is the case then you are actually turning the adjustment in the direction to lower the Point of Impact, or move it down. I could explain more, but I just wanted to toss this out and you should know if you fully understand how to adjust an optic on a firearm. If you don't, then this could be causing your problem.

Another vote for APW. I sent them a stripped slide to a Glock 17 Gen 4 MOS that I run in USPSA CO matches and had them do a hard chrome finish. The original Glock nitride finish was pretty beat up after many years of holster draws from dry fire practice, and live fire practice/training/matches. Since I got it back, that slide now has many more holster draws and over 1,600 rounds fired and the HC finish still looks pristine. I'm pretty picky when I have somebody else do work for me, especially on my guns. They really knocked it out of the park! The fit, finish, and overall appearance of their work was top notch. Their HC finish is easy to clean and the slide now runs like its on ball bearings. Plus, I feel what they charge is really a bargain for the quality they deliver.

Suggest you call your credit card company and talk with them before placing your order. They might have to change your account so that international payments are authorized. When I order from CZ-Parts.com, I use a VISA card and it does show up as an "international transaction". My payments are authorized automatically, probably due to my credit card charge history and I might have had to chat with them years ago, but I do get an e-mail notification that there was an "international payment" in case I didn't make the charge or want to verify.

Just to add to the pile...CZ-PARTS.COM is very most awesome and definitely GTG!!! Order with confidence! Ordered an optic adapter plate for my S2 OR from them and had it in hand in a few days! Super impressed with their order processing and shipping speed. Even their charge for shipping is very reasonable, all things considered. Many US companies do not meet their level of service!

If you want to use the Shadow 2 you already have for CO, recommend yo send it to CZ Custom and get their milling job that fits the adapter plates they sell. That way, if you want to change the optic it's a simple matter of getting a new adapter plate. If you have someone direct mill it, you most likely can't change the optic it was milled for unless the new optic has the same footprint and even then it might not fit. Here's a link to CZ Custom for their milling and plate system... https://czcustom.com/custom-work/s-i-rds-plate-cut-and-plate.html Another option, if you want to use the Shadow 2 you already have, is to get a complete spare slide from CZ Custom with their milling job that uses their custom adapter plates. That will allow you to keep your existing slide intact if you want to have flexibility to switch back and forth between optic and irons, and also keep the stock slide intact for best resale value. For an optic, you might want to look at C-More systems RTS2B-V5 red dots. Many top shooters in USPSA, IPSC and Steel Challenge use them and they give you a wide range of dot size to pick from, which no other optic provides to my knowledge. Best of luck and welcome back!

All good reasons that when I decided to get serious about improving my pistol shooting skills about 6 years ago I gave up on IDPA and switched to USPSA. I had been shooting IDPA for about 5 years at that point. It took maybe a year to get in the groove with the way USPSA matches are shot, but I would never go back to IDPA.

Here is the only Thumb Rest for Glocks that I have found, that is not fixed to the frame, at the link below. It does not say anything about being approved for USPSA. https://www.tecperformance.com/home/gun-parts/glock-thumb-grip/

Generally speaking, the more skin contact the more you can control pistol movement during and after each shot. Having said that, there are other factors that can influence your specific improvement in this area by switching to another platform. Judging by the size of your hands for instance, it could be that with your body weight and grip you might not see that much difference. Best rule of thumb is to shoot a gun that fits your hand well, is comfortable to shoot, and one that you enjoy shooting. Don't rush switching to another platform, as most top shooters will tell you it's the nut behind the gun that determines success more than the particular gun. Have fun and enjoy your journey!

Plenty of Tanfoglio pistols come with hard chrome finishes from the factory. They are CZ clones and many use them for USPSA and seem to be happy with the finish on those. I had one of my Glock 17 USPSA match gun slides refinished in hard chrome a year ago by Bob Cogan at Accurate Plating & Weaponry (APW) ... https://apwcogan.com/ . They did a bang up job and the finish looked like a quality factory job, I couldn't be happier. It has a few thousand rounds on the new finish and still looks like new. Love the look and durability of hard chrome for a match gun. I did a lot of research before choosing APW and found they have a reputation as one of the best in the US. I recently started shooting a Shadow 2 in USPSA and will likely send that down to APW for hard chrome treatment after the factory finish gets worn.

That's a great test and some good data! Some would say you can do the same thing by modifying your grip, stance, or body posture. If you can get results like this by changing springs, or other hardware, it seems logical you can shoot more relaxed and are able deliver better overall performance.

I don't disagree about what the engineers might say. However, the context of their discussion and opinion is likely not the same as what the majority of BE Forum members are thinking about. They might give one answer when they are on the clock at the factory and another answer if you talk to them informally over a beer. As was said above..."When we take a stock gun and tune it up for a particular competition (like USPSA for instance), we frequently remove and install parts different from what the manufacturer installed when they sold it for generic worldwide use. It's what makes stock guns perform better for a particular competition or a particular user."

Nope...CGW states their opinion regarding the recoil buffers, as in don't use them since they are not needed and can cause problems, does indeed apply to the Shadow 2. Below pic is from the CGW website if you look for Shadow 2 recoil springs. Also, if you search on the CGW website for recoil buffers...guess what...looks like they don't sell any. When we take a stock gun and tune it up for a particular competition (like USPSA for instance), we frequently remove and install parts different from what the manufacturer installed when they sold it for generic worldwide use. It's what makes stock guns perform better for a particular competition or a particular user. I don't make this stuff up...

If you buy a used one...it might or might not have one installed or provided. Had my third range training trip with my two month old S2 OR over the weekend. I had removed the recoil buffer for this trip to see if I could feel any difference. Holy cow...to me it seemed like a night and day difference! Without the buffer the pistol felt much better, more controllable muzzle flip with better return on target and better target transitions, and this was with three different kinds of ammo; one was my match reloads (125gr Blue Bullets), one was 115gr Blazer Brass factory ammo, one was 150gr Federal Syntech. Also, Cajun Gun Works (CGW) has some info on their website that I have quoted below and they are not a fan of using recoil buffers. I know this is just one data point, but you have to sit up and take notice and give their opinion some weight with all the modified CZ's and parts they sell and all the happy customers that use their products worldwide. The CGW website, in the Tutorial section under "How to Select the Proper Recoil Spring", states (sections highlighted for emphasis)...

I bought a S2 OR about 2 months ago. Have been shooting two different Glock 17 Gen 4 MOS pistols for the past 5 years in USPSA, so I'm familiar with the plate systems and have no issues using it as long as you use proper mounting hardware and techniques (Google research will pay big dividends). A lot of folks make a big deal about direct milling, but it's overblown in my opinion and can screw you in the long run. The plate system has one big advantage by providing long term flexibility to simply change the plate when you want to switch to optics with a different footprint, and it is likely you might want to change if you keep your pistol for a few years and your opinions and technology changes. Got my adapter plate for the S2 from https://www.cz-parts.com/cz-shadow-2-accessories?page=1&at=16384 and their prices are pretty good even with the shipping cost. I received my plate in like 2 business days, quicker then service from a lot of companies right here in the US! I've had a few range trips for training with my S2 and after several mods to get it tweaked to my liking it's starting to shine and I plan to shoot my first match with it this weekend. Bottom line is I recommend the plate system without any reservations!

Thought it might be an interesting data point to know, in terms of number/percentage of owners, how many run with a recoil buffer installed versus how many have removed them. I'm a new Shadow 2 owner and still trying to decide which way will give better performance.

Add me to the club! Glad I'm not the only one having this experience. Got a Shadow 2 OR about 6 weeks ago and was excited to get my hands on one and started work to get it tweaked and set for USPSA CO. I have a couple Glock 17 Gen 4 MOS I've been shooting for over 5 years in CO and I regularly beat others with high dollar guns. First range session with the Shadow 2, I came away disappointed and frustrated to say the least. I saw my follow up shots going all over the place during fast controlled pairs and fast multiple shot strings. Slide flip and muzzle dip on return from recoil seem more violent, not less as I had been expecting. I thought that the increase in weight, almost doubling the weight going from a Glock 17 to Shadow 2, would be the secret sauce to solve any muzzle flip/recoil issues. Not so... Been playing with grips to find something that fits my hands, allows me better recoil control, and keeps the front strap checkering from chewing up my fingers. I had installed LOK Palm Swell Bogies before that first range trip, because all the cool kids said they were the best, but they just didn't work for me. Currently, I have a set of LOK Thin Full Checkered grips installed and I built up the thickness with a few layers of JB Weld and silicone carbide so they feel pretty good now. I also installed some Talon grip tape on the front strap, granulate tape over the checkering and a small strip of rubber tape at the top to smooth the abrupt transition from the checkering that did not fit my fingers (sorry, but CZ should have done a smooth transition at this location in the design). I'm not giving up, but it's going to take more work then I expected to get the Shadow 2 figured out and dialed in, for me. Until then, I'm sticking with my Glocks for matches.

Ironic the music that Snip posted above. Put on some Playing For Change music earlier today on YouTube and just let a long mix list play for some Sunday morning easy listening and inspiration. Some songs in the mix I skip, but overall some good stuff. Really renews my faith in the human race to watch and hear so many talented everyday folks from around the world and the sounds they produce with vocals and some instruments you don't hear everyday...

Wow...so many things. As has already been said, finding a quality instructor or class will save you time and money in the long run. I took a Practical Shooting Fundamentals class with Ben Stoeger a few years ago. While that class didn't immediately make me a better shooter, it did open my eyes to how important it is to focus on the fundamentals when training and it showed me what I needed to work on and how to build my own effective training program. Best money I ever spent and I'm sure it has more than returned what I spent on the class by greatly reducing my time and ammo spent on training. Ben Stoeger has many drills he uses and suggests for others that are great training and practice for all levels. Suggest you get some of his books, most recent is probably better, and you will have access to many of the drills and materials that he uses in his classes. Here's a link to some drills he has posted on his website... https://www.benstoeger.com/livefire-drills . The first three there; The Accelerator, Bill Drill, and Blake Drill, are three good standard training drills for any level shooter to increase speed and accuracy at various distances. Good luck in your journey!

For shooting matches, classes, and range training days I usually just use a ballcap with my hearing pro and don't even worry about sunscreen anymore. I live in North Carolina, so we get plenty of heat and sun exposure when outdoors and probably have a higher tolerance to the sun and thus tend to go light or skip the sunscreen. I cut 3 acres of grass all summer (about 6 months each year here in NC) with my tractor and use a wide brimmed hat that I wear over the headband style hearing pro that I wear on my tractor. My tractor hearing pro is actually designed and sold for firearms use. This universal size hat fits perfectly on my head (I wear 7 1/4 hat size) and over the hearing pro, and also has a chin strap that I use if it's windy. I got it from Amazon (see link below). I've got four years so far on my second of these hats and they provide good extra sun protection and are made out of high quality ripstop material and hold up well. Only reason I had to replace my first one is a storm was coming in while I was cutting grass and the wind ripped it off my head and my mower chewed it up before I could react. These are great hats at a hard to beat price. I did wear it at a range training session a week ago because its been hotter than normal around here and I wanted some extra protection from the sun, hat worked great at the range! Great hat at Amazon... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DDEYLBI/ref=dp_iou_view_item?ie=UTF8&psc=1

OK...let's see what Massad Ayoob (world recognized firearms expert, published writer in many firearms magazines and on line media, and expert witness for self defense trials) has to say about light triggers. He was recorded in a video interview about this subject after testifying in a trial, and repeats several times how light triggers can lead to "negligent discharge under stressful situations". Recommend watch the complete video, but if you're in a hurry jump to around time 6:30 and hear Mr. Ayoob speak on the subject... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeLgzT-9N54

Hi...my name is Bob and I'm a trigger snob. OK, my name isn't Bob, but I am a trigger snob. Having said that, while my Glock competition pistols have Timney triggers installed that break at just over 2 lbs (they really break at around 2 lbs 3 oz), the only mods I do these days to my Glock EDC pistols is install an Apex flat trigger shoe and that's usually all. The reasoning behind having an EDC trigger on the heavy side is not isolated to appendix carry, the reasoning is based on by the fact that in a stressful situation, when your adrenalin is pumping, you will likely exert more force because of this and so you will fire your weapon using much less willful thought about actual trigger pressure being applied and the overall situation. So, with a heavier trigger break it can provide an extra measure of safety that forces you to think for an instant when you hit the wall on the trigger pull, just before the trigger breaks. This is likely why standard military and LEO pistols have triggers that break on the heavy side. Personally, I like a trigger break around 4-5 pounds on my EDC pistols as I feel comfortable that this provides me with that extra measure of safety, regardless of carry style. Taking a life (yours or someone else), blowing off a body part, or putting holes in yourself, should all be things that you need to think about for just an instant before you pull the trigger.

Dang...you learned me something too! I didn't know the Viper has adjustment lock screws!!! I've used several Venoms and a Razor for several years, but never used a Viper. Agree...too many options and too many models to keep straight!