Some thoughts on .40SW

[CC3D]

This is an idea I've dwelled on a little bit and just wanted to put some thoughts down about. I really like the idea of major/ minor scoring in USPSA. It adds variety in how different divisions can approach stages or the philosophy of shooting in general. 

 

Even though .40 is a dead or dying caliber outside of this sport, I really like it for major power factor. I'll take reloading below factory PF any day over having to load above the intended specs for a given round. I am not crapping on 9 major by any means, but for me personally, I like not needing to worry about excessive wear on parts and the potential complications of running 9 major. I think a 168-170 pf .40 load in a properly tuned limited gun shoots pretty dang nice. 

 

All of that to say, I dont think allowing 9 major in limited division will kill .40 major. In an uncomped gun (with literally nothing more than speculation), I'd imagine .40 major is probably nicer shooting than 9 major. Could even balance out the extra few rounds 9 would allow for. I certainly wouldn't be selling my limited gun anytime soon. I'm not advocating for 9 major in limited, I think its a real bad idea unless power factor floor is dropped a bit, but I dont think it would kill .40 out right. I bring up the 9 major in limited thing because I hear it a lot from my buddies "I'd shoot limited if I could run 9 major", which is a pretty strongly opposed concept from what I gather. 

 

Just some thoughts. I get teased by my CO squad buddies about my "boomer division", but I'm still blowing their socks off in the overall. I'll stick with my boomer division for a while!

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

Have any of your buddies shot a 9major load out of an uncompensated gun?     I know I wouldn’t want to.   Even with a heavier grain bullet like 150 I don’t think it would be very pleasant.  

[CC3D]

Doubt it. Thats kinda my point, allowing 9 major won't really detract much from .40 imho. But again, I think its a bad idea to encourage people to run 9 major through their glocks etc. I think if you allow 9 major in limited you'll see a considerable uptick in people trying to run it through guns not designed to handle those pressures. Dropping the PF floor might be a solution to that issue though. 

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

I don’t think dropping the pf floor is necessary in any divisions in uspsa.  Unless it’s to 160 like in ipsc for open division.    Limited was never meant for 9mm guns.    I think In ipsc the minimum pf for standard division is 170 for which is basically what limited is for us.    They have plenty of options available for 40 caliber platforms 10mm platforms and they can also use 45 acp or 357 sig.      

[Johnny_Chimpo]

47 minutes ago, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

I don’t think dropping the pf floor is necessary in any divisions in uspsa.  Unless it’s to 160 like in ipsc for open division.    Limited was never meant for 9mm guns.    I think In ipsc the minimum pf for standard division is 170 for which is basically what limited is for us.    They have plenty of options available for 40 caliber platforms 10mm platforms and they can also use 45 acp or 357 sig.      

 

What's the recoil difference between 9 major and 357 SIG?

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

1 minute ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

What's the recoil difference between 9 major and 357 SIG?

I’m not sure. I don’t shoot 357 sig and I definitely don’t shoot 9maj out of an uncompensated gun.     I don’t think I would want to use either for uspsa limited division when I can push a 180 grain bullet at 950 fps. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

Just now, OpenshooterAclass4lyfe said:

I’m not sure. I don’t shoot 357 sig and I definitely don’t shoot 9maj out of an uncompensated gun.     I don’t think I would want to use either for uspsa limited division when I can push a 180 grain bullet at 950 fps. 

 

I don't know either but I think it would be damned close.  I mean you can easily deduce how fast you need to push a 9 mm bullet to make major PF and compare that to what you can get out of 357 SIG either commercially or by hand loading.

 

Point being, I've always wondered why 9 major isn't allowed in Limited when 357 SIG (which is going to be damned close in recoil and pressure) is.  Is it because the PTB are concerned that the higher capacity you can get out of 9 mm will make 40 obsolete? 

 

I think there are several reasons why no one seems to shoot 357 SIG.  I've read the recoil impulse is nasty, plus brass seems to be very difficult to find.

 

All of that to say that I think @CC3D might be right in that letting 9 major in limited won't change anything.  But that's just a guess by this guy who doesn't have a dog in the Limited fight.

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

I’d have to say it’s because of the added ammo in the magazine.  23 in a 140mm and can sometimes squeeze 24 in there.     They do offer some heavy projectiles for 9mm.  Largest I’ve seen was 160 iirc.   A 160 at 1050 would easily make power factor but I don’t think it would be that enjoyable to shoot. 

[CC3D]

 

2 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

I've always wondered why 9 major isn't allowed in Limited

I have wondered the same, again I'm not advocating for it, but I imagine it has to do with capacity/ safety/ a bit of residual rules from the old days. 

 

But yes I really doubt it changes much. Nasty recoil for 3+ rounds? I dont see it making much of a difference. It certainly won't kill .40 which is was my original intent to the post. My original point is that I like .40 because I can make major power factor without pushing the capability of my gun and rounds, which makes it desirable in the sport despite being a dead caliber elsewhere 

[zzt]

24 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

What's the recoil difference between 9 major and 357 SIG?

 

Very, very little.  A 9mm 115jhp @ 1500fps is going to feel just like a 357 Sig 115 @ 1500fps.

 

40sw is not dead outside of USPSA.  If it were there would be no 40sw brass in the brass buckets at my home club.  The reason you see a lot more 9mm is because a lot of people don't reload.  They shoot factory 9mm.  Factory 40sw, with few exceptions, is much hotter.

 

40sw is the ideal caliber for Limited.  It is also a stunningly good caliber for Open.  Much softer and flatter than 9 major.  The only so called handicap is 26 in a big stick rather than 29.  Big deal.  If I could have found one piece comp/barrels I'd still be shooting 40 Open.

 

9 major in an uncompensated gun is violent.   You WILL NOT like the hit your hand takes.  In a properly sprung 2011 it is not damaging.  However, I'd never shoot it in an uncompensated plastic gun.

[Rnlinebacker]

Carry Optics is the #1 division in USPSA for the foreseeable future. Stop trying to resurrect dinosaur divisions . It's a free country and people have taken to CO. 

 

I shoot open for the matter so I'm not biased. Numbers don't lie and CO has every big manufacturer behind it producing optics ready guns. There's no going back now

[CC3D]

31 minutes ago, Rnlinebacker said:

Stop trying to resurrect dinosaur divisions

The main message in this thread has been "limited makes sense the way it is", nothing to do with CO or "resurrecting" divisions 

[CC3D]

50 minutes ago, zzt said:

If it were there would be no 40sw brass in the brass buckets at my home club

This is a good point. I was worried about brass availability when I started loading .40, it has not been an issue at all. Bought a big box of once fired to start out but ended up not really needing it, range pick ups have been decently easy to come across. 

[motosapiens]

4 hours ago, CC3D said:

This is a good point. I was worried about brass availability when I started loading .40, it has not been an issue at all. Bought a big box of once fired to start out but ended up not really needing it, range pick ups have been decently easy to come across. 

it's not going to be a problem for a long time. lots of LE agencies are still using 40 even tho the ones that want to hire sissies and girls have switched to 9mm.

 

Lots of ordinary people still buy, own and shoot 40's. It's nowhere near dead.

[shred]

Ask anyone pushing for 9-major in Limited if they'd be ok with a 20-rounds-max-per-mag limit.

 

If the answer is no, that's all the answer you need.

 

I think it's a bad idea because people will try it in 9mms that are not strong enough to handle it, but that's a separate thing.

 

9x25 Dillon showed decades ago that flatter shooting isn't worth 3 rounds in a big stick mag.  IPSC allows .357 Sig to score Major for the Aussies and it seems to do ok there.

 

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

4 minutes ago, shred said:

Ask anyone pushing for 9-major in Limited if they'd be ok with a 20-rounds-max-per-mag limit.

 

If the answer is no, that's all the answer you need.

 

I think it's a bad idea because people will try it in 9mms that are not strong enough to handle it, but that's a separate thing.

 

9x25 Dillon showed decades ago that flatter shooting isn't worth 3 rounds in a big stick mag.  Nobody is going to believe that +3 rounds isn't worth it.

 

This ^^^

[zzt]

36 minutes ago, shred said:

9x25 Dillon showed decades ago that flatter shooting isn't worth 3 rounds in a big stick mag. 

 

Well, 40sw IS softer and flatter shooting and you do give up three rounds in a big stick.  So what.  I can count on two fingers the times that that made a difference.  I shoot 9 major Open and I STILL plan on a reload on long stages.  In the three seasons I've been shooting 9 major I have yet to encounter a stage where I could not change mags without losing any time.  What I have found is shooting a 30 shot stage with 29+1 IS slower than a reload.

[shred]

Depends what level a shooter you are.  None of the top guys that used to shoot 9x25 do anymore, and nobody shoots .40 Open or .357 Sig at the top levels so there is something to round count.  Been a while since I really shot like a GM, but it mattered enough then.

 

For a B-class shooter, say, shoot whatever they prefer because they'll be giving away pointstime all over the place anyway.

 

 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

21 hours ago, shred said:

people will try it in 9mms that are not strong enough to handle it,

 

What keeps someone from doing that in open?

[shred]

Lack of inadequate 9x19 Open guns.

[CC3D]

20 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

What keeps someone from doing that in open?

Tons and tons of people shoot regular production guns like glocks etc. in limited. Limited being the catch all divisions for new shooters, I think allowing 9 major will encourage some to try and run it through those guns. 

 

Open in general is a division people end up in, rather than start in. Someone with a production style gun, as mentioned above, and wants to shoot a dot is much more likely to go to CO than open. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, CC3D said:

Tons and tons of people shoot regular production guns like glocks etc. in limited. Limited being the catch all divisions for new shooters, I think allowing 9 major will encourage some to try and run it through those guns. 

 

Open in general is a division people end up in, rather than start in. Someone with a production style gun, as mentioned above, and wants to shoot a dot is much more likely to go to CO than open. 

 

I can sort of see that but in the end it's a guess.

 

My guess is that most new shooters choosing limited to start have little knowledge of power factor and even less about 9 mm major. 

[rowdyb]

9 major in Lim would be the height of lunacy. Were none of you alive in the early 80s?

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

14 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I can sort of see that but in the end it's a guess.

 

My guess is that most new shooters choosing limited to start have little knowledge of power factor and even less about 9 mm major. 

I advise new shooters to shoot lim minor with the pistol they have so for one they don’t have to buy a bunch of equipment like magazines and for two to get a feel for the sport and then eventually find a division they might want to play in.       Someone starting out in lim minor allows them to run their out of the box or semi custom pistol in 9mm and have minimal equipment.    Usually 3 mags loaded to full capacity is more then enough for them and then all they need is a dual mag pouch and a holster.    Lim minor is the get your feet wet division.   

[Bagellord]

14 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I can sort of see that but in the end it's a guess.

 

My guess is that most new shooters choosing limited to start have little knowledge of power factor and even less about 9 mm major. 

As an MD, I push new shooters into A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want to reduce the number of reloads they have to think about, and reduces the chance of a standing reload. This makes it more fun for them and less likely to do something unsafe during a reload when they are inexperienced. 

 

Without dropping the power factor floor for major, I don't see how you could safely allow 9 major in limited without some really strict (and out of place) restrictions on the type of gun. A 2011 with a fully supported chamber can likely handle 9 major without a comp, but if you had someone try that with a stock glock or M&P? That's a recipe for disaster in my opinion. I am willing to be educated otherwise.