How light is too light?

[Squirrel45]

This is a general SC equipment question, but currently working on a RFPO and RFRO. I see all sorts of ultra light weight barrels for sale from Tacsol to Volqs etc. Is there really a point where you could make it to light and thus loose a sense of feeling/ steadiness?  

 

thanks

Squirrel   

[Darqusoull13]

RFRO, depends on your preference. I use a JP-22 with an ultralight barrel and MLOK hand guard. It's significantly lighter than my PCCO JP-5. I don't really notice as much of a difference as you'd think though.

For RFPO I prefer heavier but that's due to what feels natural to me. I run a Shadow 2 in CO for SCSA and USPSA. It's heavy. My RFPO at WSSC last year was a 75 Kadet with a X300 to mimic the weight of the S2 with the heavier rail. This year I'll likely run a 6" VQ Mamba. Why? Because the 6" was noticeably less violent than the 4.5". The dot settled much better and was more predictable. Again, that's probably because I'm so used to the Shadow 2. I don't like concussion, even with little CCI Mini Mags. 

Really the best advice anyone can give you is to ask to try a light setup at a match if you see one. Then you understand if it fits YOU and not someone else. Oh, and I'm definitely not running what the majority of SCSA folks trend towards as far as weight. 

[Squirrel45]

That's interesting to hear, thank you for your input. I had a Ruger mk IV cut down to 3.5" and that was a mistake. I feel that it lost point ability. The only stage that I could do well in was S&H. The rest of them it felt like I was out of control, hard to explain.  

[egd5]

For rifles, everyone seems to want lighter and lighter. But for me when I've handled a lighter (very light) unit I find it hard to stop without overrunning a plate. Everyone needs to find the happy medium that works for them, but that is easier said than done.

[EarlKeese]

A couple weekends ago I squadded with a junior shooting GM class times with a 4.5lb 10/22 and a grown man shooting B class times with a 3lb 10/22. Weight didn't seem to be a factor for either of them. 

[Hoops]

FWIW and what works for me.  I shoot 10/22's that are all within 4 lbs 2 oz that have Briley Raptor barrels w/o a comp.  My MPX Gen 2 with carbon fiber butt stock and handguard is 6 lb 4 oz.  I usually shoot my MPX (Atlanta Arms SC115 gr) about the same times as my 10/22.   Sig Romeo 3XL on all of the guns.  The MPX Gen 2's have a shorter barrel with a longer flash hidder factory pinned and welded ( factory OAL 16.5") and the weight is centered a bit more towards the rear.  I had an MPX Competition version with the longer 16.25" barrel plus it had a comp.  I felt the weight on the competition version out towards the muzzle and did not use it for SCSA. 

 

For me, it depends on how the weight feels out towards the muzzle vs the total weight.  I prefer some weight on the muzzle but if it gets too light, I tend to overshoot the SCSA targets.  I have other 10/22 barrels that I shoot occasionally and find that 15 oz is my upper limit for feel.  Also, barrel reliabilty trumps weight for me.  Everyone is different so a lot of this is subjective to the shooter.  One of my friends shoots his 10/22 ultra light version with a sleeved barrel very well.  Another uses a heavier chassis and shoots it very well.

 

If you shoot with friends who have different chassis's and barrel's, perhaps they would let you handle them at the safe table or better, let you shoot one.

 

Good luck

 

[Thomas H]

Some good answers so far, IMO.

 

My opinion (so feel free to ignore it):

 

Much of it is going to be highly subjective.  That being said, I think that one thing that seems to make a measurable difference for rimfire rifle shooters is a combination of where the rifle balances, and how much weight is ahead of that balance point on the muzzle end of the gun.

 

If the center of balance is really, really close to where the dot is, AND there isn't significant weight on the muzzle end, the exact overall weight isn't that important, as long as the rifle as a whole doesn't weigh 15 pounds or anything.   One of the reasons people adjust a lot of stuff on their gun, IMO, is based on the fact that people put their dots in all sorts of places.  For example, I like a really short stock with the dot close to me.  I have friends who have that stock extended all the way, and the dot is significantly away from their eyes.  However, in both cases, we have ended up with rifles fiddled with such that the center of balance is about where the dot is on the gun, and the muzzle end itself doesn't have much weight to it.  

 

Our gun weights are different, but the speed at which we can snap the gun to the next target, and the stability of the muzzle (making a stable sight picture) is about the same---even though our guns are completely different lengths, with the dot in very different places. 

 

My BET would be that no matter your configuration, anyone at A or higher in rimfire rifles can balance their rifle really close to where there dot is, and the muzzle end is pretty light.  And even if they weren't thinking about that when they built it, it eventually came together to work best that way.

If the balance is on the stock-end of the dot, the muzzle is going to be entirely too flightly.  If the balance is forward of the dot, the shooter will have more difficulty stopping it correctly on transitions (and have slightly slower starts, too).  In all cases, if the muzzle-end has added weight, starting-stopping transitions will be slower. 

 

For pistols, though---wow, that's all over the place.  For RFPO, I like a really light gun.  For RFPI, I use a Ruger Mark II Target model with the long bull barrel, so it doesn't move AT ALL like my RFPI gun.  And it weighs a ton more.  And yet, I had no trouble making GM in both of them---matter of fact, I'm 9th on the "Top 20" list in RFPI.  (Hm.  Thinking on it, it IS true that I've never tried RFPO with a heavier gun.  I have a Mark III with a shorter bull barrel and a decent trigger that I could throw a dot on....wonder what that would do to my times?)

 

For _pistols_ (in rimfire at least), I think that weight only matters for personal idiosyncrasies (again, as long as the pistol doesn't weigh 10 pounds, or on the other end of the spectrum, isn't 14" long with a feather-light front end), and what is far more important is having a good trigger.  

 

I'd be interested to hear from people where their rimfire rifle balances (how close to where their dot is places), and how much (if any) weight there is on the muzzle end.

[JM_]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

Some good answers so far, IMO.

 

My opinion (so feel free to ignore it):

 

Much of it is going to be highly subjective.  That being said, I think that one thing that seems to make a measurable difference for rimfire rifle shooters is a combination of where the rifle balances, and how much weight is ahead of that balance point on the muzzle end of the gun.

 

If the center of balance is really, really close to where the dot is, AND there isn't significant weight on the muzzle end, the exact overall weight isn't that important, as long as the rifle as a whole doesn't weigh 15 pounds or anything.   One of the reasons people adjust a lot of stuff on their gun, IMO, is based on the fact that people put their dots in all sorts of places.  For example, I like a really short stock with the dot close to me.  I have friends who have that stock extended all the way, and the dot is significantly away from their eyes.  However, in both cases, we have ended up with rifles fiddled with such that the center of balance is about where the dot is on the gun, and the muzzle end itself doesn't have much weight to it.  

 

Our gun weights are different, but the speed at which we can snap the gun to the next target, and the stability of the muzzle (making a stable sight picture) is about the same---even though our guns are completely different lengths, with the dot in very different places. 

 

My BET would be that no matter your configuration, anyone at A or higher in rimfire rifles can balance their rifle really close to where there dot is, and the muzzle end is pretty light.  And even if they weren't thinking about that when they built it, it eventually came together to work best that way.

If the balance is on the stock-end of the dot, the muzzle is going to be entirely too flightly.  If the balance is forward of the dot, the shooter will have more difficulty stopping it correctly on transitions (and have slightly slower starts, too).  In all cases, if the muzzle-end has added weight, starting-stopping transitions will be slower. 

 

For pistols, though---wow, that's all over the place.  For RFPO, I like a really light gun.  For RFPI, I use a Ruger Mark II Target model with the long bull barrel, so it doesn't move AT ALL like my RFPI gun.  And it weighs a ton more.  And yet, I had no trouble making GM in both of them---matter of fact, I'm 9th on the "Top 20" list in RFPI.  (Hm.  Thinking on it, it IS true that I've never tried RFPO with a heavier gun.  I have a Mark III with a shorter bull barrel and a decent trigger that I could throw a dot on....wonder what that would do to my times?)

 

For _pistols_ (in rimfire at least), I think that weight only matters for personal idiosyncrasies (again, as long as the pistol doesn't weigh 10 pounds, or on the other end of the spectrum, isn't 14" long with a feather-light front end), and what is far more important is having a good trigger.  

 

I'd be interested to hear from people where their rimfire rifle balances (how close to where their dot is places), and how much (if any) weight there is on the muzzle end.

Tom is 100% correct here (at least for adults), some of the kids aren't strong enough and require stupid light rifles, that's why they run them. In terms of rifles, two of the heaviest rifles in the game placed top 3 at the Rimfire World Championship. Kolby Pavlock with his 7ish lb rifle took second and Jesse Misco (me) took 3rd with a 6lb rifle. It really comes down to balance, a 6lb rifle that's rear heavy is going to swing smoother than a 3lb hyper light rifle. A fast gun needs to be either balanced or rear heavy to be able to compete. As far as pistols go, so long as you're not using a stock ruger bull barrel you'll have a perfectly balanced gun, and that's all that matters.

[Squirrel45]

Thanks everyone for their in-depth analysis here. Seems that personal preference is way higher then I thought. I was thinking that most if not all were going to reply, make it as light as conceivably possible. Interesting 

 

Thanks again 

Squirrel

[zzt]

I agree with TH, but have a different take.  I want the rifle balanced so that when I hold it there is no sensation of being muzzle or stock heavy.

 

When I built my 10/22 I went for light.  Super light stock, Wiland barrel and shroud, etc.  It weighed 3.5 lbs. with the dot.  With only a 5.5" barrel and a light shroud hanging out front it was stock heavy.  The muzzle wandered.  If you didn't have a perfect trigger pull you pulled the gun off target.  I also didn't like the jiggly Axiom Blackhawk stock.  Plus the Wiland barrel was quite finicky about what ammo it would chamber.

 

I replaced the barrel with a Briley Raptor at @Hoops suggestion.  I ditched the Axiom and went with a Kidd Al chassis.  The stock was a Smoke Composite unit.  The rifle balances perfectly, feeds everything and is quite controllable at 4.5 lbs.  It took me one 6 stage match to get used to it.  Then I took 7 seconds out of my total match time over the next three shoots.  It transitions like lightning.

 

Muzzle heavy is your enemy.  It feels like you are swinging a log.  Transitions are slower.

 

My rifle balances (empty) in the center of the magwell.  That is EXACTLY where I want it.  My dot is well forward of the balance point for a variety of reasons.  One is you have less of a field of view.  It helps focus.  Also on closer targets like S&H, if you see white, pull the trigger.  You only have to aim at the stop plate.

[-JCN-]

Great thread, thanks all who posted.

 

[KelsonAK]

For me - yea, it can get too light on a rifle.  I have a pair of 10/22s set up with Todd's barrels.  One has an Axiom stock, which makes the thing silly light.  One has a Magpul stock - which brings the balance point back towards my body a bit and also makes the whole thing a bit heavier.  I've done something similar with my PCC - opted for a light front end with some weight in the rear (I like big buttstocks and I can not lie...) to move the balance point towards my body a bit.  The extra weight overall helps me with keeping things stable, which I find especially noticeable on Outer Limits, but it comes into play for others as well.

For pistols...   I don't really know.  Maybe I'm not good enough to tell.  I find I shoot a heavier centerfire gun 'more better' - but that may simply be a crutch for not having as good a grip as I should or other technique things and perhaps I'm weak in.  It doesn't alter my draw speed.  For rimfire, I seem to shoot a steel bull barrel ruger as well as a VQ as well as a ruger lite.  So I shoot the one that I like the paint job on...