USPSA Multigun rules 5.5

[Kilroy614]

I am in a 3 gun league in Canada and we have adopted the USPSA multigun rule set.  We have some competitors that wish to stage magazines on the stage prior to starting to shoot.

I feel that, although not specifically forbidden, that practice violates the spirt of the rules and the competition in general.

I also feel that because the rules state competitors may carry there extra magazines and ammunition on there person or firearm that it is the intended practice for the competitors to carry all of the ammunition they require for that stage with them, not strategically place it on the stage before they shoot.

I am looking for any feedback on this or if it is a thing anywhere else.

Thanks

[Schutzenmeister]

5.5.1 states:

 

Quote

 

Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, spare

ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices may be carried

anywhere on the shooter’s person or firearm. The shooter must not be

allowed to have ammunition or magazines/speed loading

devices in their hands at the start signal.

 

 

What this says is that the shooter may carry his "spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices may be carried anywhere on the shooter’s person or firearm."  It does not restrict where on the person or his firearm these can be carried.

 

What it does not do is give the shooter permission to "stage" ammo anywhere on the stage he chooses.  If you want to do that it must be specified in the WSB.

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Schutzenmeister

[Boomstick303]

I have heard of this in other matches as well and being a point of contention.  Can you point to where in 5.5 that would indicate this is legal in regards to staging magazines on the stage prior to starting the stage?

 

5.5.1

Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices may be carried

anywhere on the shooter’s person or firearm. The shooter must not be allowed to have ammunition or magazines/speed loading

devices in their hands at the start signal.

 

I do not see anywhere else that would indicate this would be legal to "stage" magazines/loading devices.

 

I have just started shooting Multi-Gun, so I would like to understand this rule fully as well. 

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Boomstick303

[gerritm]

We shoot 3-gun and have shot USPSA rules in several. It is pretty common based on LOCAL rules to allow staging of ammo on props, tables, or barrels. Many shooters do not have all of the equipment needed for 3-gun especially shotgun caddies and rifle mag holders so if they need to stage a box of shells or a mag in the stage would not be an issue if the LOCAL rules or SD allows it. This is a benefit for new shooters introduced to the sport.  If it doesn't say prohibited then it would be OK. Either forbid it or write it into the SD.

 

gerritm

[davsco]

note that down in the Multigun Appendices, it says  

Magazines must be carried on the belt or in apparel pockets.

[davsco]

1 hour ago, Schutzenmeister said:

What it does not do is give the shooter permission to "stage" ammo anywhere on the stage he chooses. 

 

I disagree with your understanding of that section.  Just because wording says you May do one thing, that doesn't necessarily preclude you from doing something else.  If it said "may only" then I'd agree with you.  But as i noted above, i think the appendices limit mags to on your person and thus not staged.

[davsco]

2 hours ago, Kilroy614 said:

I am in a 3 gun league in Canada and we have adopted the USPSA multigun rule set.  We have some competitors that wish to stage magazines on the stage prior to starting to shoot.

 

welcome to the GAMES!  words have meanings and MAY does not equal MUST.  if what we feel doesn't equal the actual words, then the words govern what is and isn't allowed.  part of the fun is understanding the actual words and what you may or not be able to do though gaming, at least for me, generally doesn't change my placement much...

[broadside72]

It's USPSA, you need to read the entire rulebook to make sure something vague or optional (aka "may") is not overruled in another section, like it appears to be in this case via the Appendix

[Boomstick303]

30 minutes ago, davsco said:

words have meanings and MAY does not equal MUST.

 

I would think context matters in the use of the word "may".

 

" magazines and/or speed loading devices may be carried anywhere on the shooter’s person or firearm."  May infers allowed to be carried anywhere on the shooter's person or firearm.  Meaning it cannot be dictated to be carried a specific way or location on the body.

 

I do not understand how you would believe the word "may" in this context would allow someone to "stage" ammo somewhere off their body.  It does not say mags/loading devices may be placed anywhere, i.e. off of the body somewhere.

 

There is no gaming the text as written in this case.

[davsco]

they could have easily said "may only" but they didn't.  we don't have a duty to infer or deduce, the words used in rules are made to be taken at face value.  remember the rules don't have to say what we cannot do or where we cannot do it. 

 

note that the multigun language is distinctly different than for regular uspsa, where they say "shall be carried."

 

and to further support my position/understanding, if the wording in section 5 was meant to preclude having mags other than on the body, they wouldn't have needed the language on that down in the indices.

[Boomstick303]

Please help me understand how the statement "magazines and/or speed loading devices may be carried anywhere on the shooter’s person or firearm."  infers you my put mags anywhere other than ON the shooters person (body)?  

 

You do not need an appendances to deduce otherwise.

 

 

 

[davsco]

you may drink.  that sentence doesn't mean that you cannot eat.

 

the language in section 5 doesn't preclude having mags off your body.  that's why they clarified that in the appendix.

 

and your first sentence above is incorrect.  section 5 says you can have mags on your body.  it doesn't say (and no one would infer) that you can have mags anywhere but your body.

[JWBaldree]

In my AO, both clubs don't mind if a competitor needs to stage a mag or some extra shells to get through a stage. Neither club runs USPSA rules, but if they did I'm sure neither would disallow staging. Quite frankly, it doesn't happen that often that I have seen, and is usually done by a newer shooter lacking gear, or by someone who forgot some gear. The only headache that I can imagine is someone waiting until "Make Ready" to stage their stuff instead of getting it ready during reset; and let's face it, grabbing staged mags or ammo is never going to be faster than pulling from pouches or caddies.

 

For the OP, I'm not up on Canadian firearm laws, but aren't you guys restricted to 10 rounds for basically everything? I like to believe I'm still dainty with my 38 inch waist, but I get crowded with a pistol, 2 shot shell caddies, 3 pistol mags and a rifle mag on my belt. If I felt like being a contortionist, I could fit one more shell caddy or rifle pouch. My point is, I'm not sure how big your club's stages are but if i had to carry my load out with 10 round mags I would not be a happy competitor. Especially if I was some scrawny dude with a 30 inch waist. If I was you guys, I would write my stage briefings if needed to allow for staged mags / shells and cover timely staging of said mags / shells in the shooters meeting so as not to hamper the match flow. More people shooting club matches is a good thing, so ease the barriers to entry and participation. Party on Canadian style and have fun.

[Boomstick303]

Comical.

 

[TonytheTiger]

20 hours ago, gerritm said:

We shoot 3-gun and have shot USPSA rules in several. It is pretty common based on LOCAL rules to allow staging of ammo on props, tables, or barrels.

Stuff like this is why I'm continuously surprised by 3 gun. 6 years of shooting it across several states in both majors and locals and every ruleset I've read that mentions it says ammo must be on person. The ones that don't mention it default to the rulesets that do. There is just zero continuity in 3 gun and I'm surprised it doesn't bother people more. I'm not saying your club is right or wrong, just that the regional differences are staggering. But every time I've mentioned 3 gun all gathering under the same umbrella and adopting a universal ruleset I get burned at stake.

[gerritm]

We have shot majors in UML, which seems to have a pretty good rule set and several others and yes they seem to be based on whatever organization is the flavor of the month, Many have come & gone over the years.

 

I am only talking about monthly LOCAL 3-gun matches including local UML The MD has the ability to make his own set of rules or tweak UML rules to make his local shooters happy and show up. We have many newbies that come out for the first couple of times with no idea what they need. If they can't borrow it we make adjustments to keep them interested to come back. If that means throwing an extra mag or a box of SG shells on a barrel to finish, so be it.

 

Majors, whether USPSA or other are totally different in rulesets. Most post their set of rules and you shoot by them.

 

Most locally here are going to a modified UML format, and tweaking the divisions based on shooters. Goal is to keep & interest new shooters.

 

 

gerritm

[TonytheTiger]

I get what you're saying, and why it may help a brand new guy. But I still disagree with the principle of it. I shot 3 gun for years and got used to the randomness. Then I tried USPSA and was immediately impressed by the fact that I could look up the ONE set of comprehensive rules online, and then go to any match in the country from a small local to a major and know how the rules work. Half the reason new 3 gun shooters show up with no clue what's going on or what they need is because there is no single place they can research ahead of time, and anything they do read ahead of time won't apply to the constantly variable rules used by the locals they'll attend first. That said I've never seen a new shooter that didn't get offered anything they needed by other shooters.

[davsco]

all for bending the equipment rules (not safety of course) for newbies and/or loaning gear as needed.  any md hosting a match should have their rules posted somewhere just so all the shooters are on the same page.  yeah one national rulebook would be preferred, but as long as the rules are posted in advance it's not a deal killer at least for me.

[gerritm]

3 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

I get what you're saying, and why it may help a brand new guy. But I still disagree with the principle of it. I shot 3 gun for years and got used to the randomness. Then I tried USPSA and was immediately impressed by the fact that I could look up the ONE set of comprehensive rules online, and then go to any match in the country from a small local to a major and know how the rules work. Half the reason new 3 gun shooters show up with no clue what's going on or what they need is because there is no single place they can research ahead of time, and anything they do read ahead of time won't apply to the constantly variable rules used by the locals they'll attend first. That said I've never seen a new shooter that didn't get offered anything they needed by other shooters.

I agree . would be nice to have a universal ruleset. Other than USPSA multigun & UML, I haven't seen rules that most go by since 3-gun Nation folded. Our problem here is it is pretty hard to help a newbie out with gear when they bring a pump or semi that holds 4/5 rounds, some with the plug still in it,  and try to give and show him how to use quads/dual or old caddies. Rounds in their pockets suck. Most have pistol mags/holders and most local stages 1-30 round AR mag is enough, but can stow an extra 30 rounder in a pocket works 

 

Here in the Houston metro area 3-gun has suffered. Only a couple of good UML style matches. Trying hard to get & keep newbies.

 

gerritm

[JWBaldree]

Seems like the two biggest 'gotchas' for newer shooters are spinners and the ability to carry shotgun ammo. It is a ton of fun for the rest of us to watch someone got to war with a spinner or yard sale a bunch of shells all over the stage. I've had a few times where i've Ro'ed shooters and handed them shells off of my caddy or a Glock mag so they can finish. I get the spirit of the rules i.e. carry your own ammo, but a part of being match director is making sure your customers have fun and want to come back. 

 

Specifically, the new to 3 gun guy isn't going to have squat for shell caddies, and probably isn't going to drop the money on them until he knows if he likes the game or not. And it's not like I can hand him my ELS clipped gear because his USPSA belt isn't set up for that. I'd further posit that loaning someone shells off of my belt or letting them stage a box of shells isn't going to improve their last place performance any. As stated, 3 gunners tend to be very helpful and accommodating with newer shooters and getting them to drink the Kool-Aid. Were I MD'ing a local, I would want to do my best to attract and retain every shooter I could, even if I have to bend the flavor of a USPSA appendice. 

[TonytheTiger]

2 hours ago, JWBaldree said:

Seems like the two biggest 'gotchas' for newer shooters are spinners and the ability to carry shotgun ammo.

 

Were I MD'ing a local, I would want to do my best to attract and retain every shooter I could, even if I have to bend the flavor of a USPSA appendice. 

And texas stars. And death stars. And double death stars. And double clay toasters. And double spinners. And any rifle shots over 100 yards. Or offhand. Or a combination of both. And the timer. Point is 3 gun is going to hurt everyone's feelings in every way possible.

 

While I won't disagree with the point made that bending the rules for newbies might help attract them, as a guy that MD'd a local series in 2020 I can tell you all the things being discussed here aren't the biggest hurdles. Ammo availability and rising costs of everything make all your points moot.

Edited March 12, 2022 by TonytheTiger

[Intheshaw1]

When I started the I showed up with Benelli Nova duck gun and a fanny pack for shells. I was hooked up by pretty much everyone on my squad who all eagerly pushed me to try their gear. I got some shell holders from a guy who went open but still brings them to every match to loan out. I now do the same thing and Ive accumulated a lot of gear and keep extras in my truck to loan out.

 

But the point has been made, none of it really matters as locally 3gun has been dead for 2 years but they are trying once again to revive it this year. Shotgun ammo seems to be more available but at $11 plus a box it's not the.cheapest thing to shoot anymore.