Late carry-up: how big a deal?

[Fishbreath]

After dry fire last night, I discovered that my .357 Super GP has late carry-up timing on two or three chambers: if I thumb the hammer back very slowly in single action, it will reach full cock before the cylinder latch engages the appropriate notch on the cylinder.

 

I don't think it's actively causing any problems—my earlier lead fouling issues seem to be resolved by a different bullet/powder combination—but it does seem like the kind of thing I probably shouldn't leave for too long. Numrich apparently sells pawls, even though Ruger lists them as factory-fit parts, so I can give that a try. I think it's at least as likely to be the ratchet, though—its teeth have notably different profiles that correspond to the differences in carry-up timing between the chambers.

 

Am I making something out of nothing? Do I try a fresh pawl? I'm reluctant to send it to the factory for a look, because a) they just had it, and b) my backup-gun-to-be is there already, and I'd rather have one than zero.

[PatJones]

Does it carry up with fired cases in the cylinder? If so you don't really have a problem yet.

 

Is the crane bent? This can cause timing issues.

[Fishbreath]

I'll check with fired cases when I get home.

 

As far as I can tell, the crane is straight—the gap between it and the frame is the same all along its height.

[Farmer]

Seen very few that Don’t do that if you pull back the hammer very slowly, even new ones.  Most are so close that they just fall in with a slight tremor. 

[GMM50]

The classic test is to put the revolver in your left hand, holding it so that your fingers touch the cylinder and can add drag. 

Then with your right hand pull bank on the hammer and notice if the hammer cocks first or the cylinder indexes first.

Go slow.  Going fast will make most issues go away.

[PatJones]

7 hours ago, GMM50 said:

The classic test is to put the revolver in your left hand, holding it so that your fingers touch the cylinder and can add drag. 

Then with your right hand pull bank on the hammer and notice if the hammer cocks first or the cylinder indexes first.

Go slow.  Going fast will make most issues go away.

In gunsmithing school I was specifically instructed not to touch the cylinder, just go super slow. Likely doesn't make much difference either way.

 

If it doesn't carry up with an empty cylinder you then checked it with fired cases, some of these new extractors can have a fair bit of movement without ammo in the gun.

[matteekay]

On 2/9/2022 at 4:00 PM, PatJones said:

If it doesn't carry up with an empty cylinder you then checked it with fired cases, some of these new extractors can have a fair bit of movement without ammo in the gun.

 

I was wondering why you asked about fired cases. That makes sense.

[pskys2]

12 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

I was wondering why you asked about fired cases. That makes sense.

That and a if the lock up is questionable, i.e. locks at the same time as the hammer falls, the resistance will probalby make it late.

[Fishbreath]

With light drag from my finger and no fired cases, it's late to lock on all chambers. With fired cases and no finger drag, it's late on one or two, sometimes.

[Toolguy]

A little bit wider hand is what's needed to fix that.

[Fishbreath]

27 minutes ago, Toolguy said:

A little bit wider hand is what's needed to fix that.

 

I guess I'll order one, and block out an evening for some very careful filing.

 

Thanks!

[Toolguy]

You will need a fine (240 or finer grit) diamond file. The hand is hardened tool steel. A regular file will just skate over it (and dull the file). Only file the nose at the top, and only on the left side, closest to the center pin. Check for fit often. You can leave the hand on the trigger for filing, just tilt it backwards all the way. Measure the width of the original hand. You will want to end up around .001 or .002 wider, but start testing at .004 wider, and work your way down from there.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Toolguy

[pskys2]

Worst case scenario the star is worn too much.  

Then buy a new star, not expensive and not that hard to set up.  2 things to watch 1) chamfer the charge holes before fitting (it can change the fit) 2) the ejector rod is reverse threaded, so you need to take it CW to loosen.  This is preferable to getting an oversized hand, Powers, and filing the window wider.   They make special files just for that but I don't like doing that as it limits you in the future.

[Fishbreath]

59 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

Worst case scenario the star is worn too much.  

Then buy a new star, not expensive and not that hard to set up.

 

Ruger calls that part factory fit and won't sell it to random folks like me, unfortunately.

[pskys2]

6 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

Ruger calls that part factory fit and won't sell it to random folks like me, unfortunately.

S&W isn't quite so "touchy?"  Ruger does do things a bit differently.

[matteekay]

1 hour ago, pskys2 said:

S&W isn't quite so "touchy?"  Ruger does do things a bit differently.

 

Try ordering from Chiappa. Off the top of my head, the following parts "require" an FFL:

• Barrel
• Firing pin
• Both sear components
• Hammer
• Return lever (their version of the rebound slide)
• Cylinder stop
• Basically all parts of the cylinder

[pskys2]

13 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

Try ordering from Chiappa. Off the top of my head, the following parts "require" an FFL:

• Barrel
• Firing pin
• Both sear components
• Hammer
• Return lever (their version of the rebound slide)
• Cylinder stop
• Basically all parts of the cylinder

WOW, and they're probably marked up just a bit?

[matteekay]

1 hour ago, pskys2 said:

WOW, and they're probably marked up just a bit?

 

Actually, no, their parts are really well-priced. Which makes it worse, lol.

[Fishbreath]

18 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Ruger does do things a bit differently.

 

It's true. I haven't yet paid a dime for factory service, not even shipping, and you'd have to squint pretty hard to call some of it warranty work, but I'm pretty limited on what I can do on my own. The hammer body, trigger body (that is, the part that has the hammer dog cam surface, the SA sear, and the DA sear), ejector (and the little screw that holds it in), and firing pin are the biggest of the items Ruger won't sell you. The pawl is listed as factory-only, but Numrich has factory new options in stock.

 

Bowen makes an extended firing pin, which in combination with the screw-in firing pin bushing on late model Ruger DA guns solves that one, but otherwise the aftermarket options are also nonexistent.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Fishbreath

[Carmoney]

As to the original question:  

Keep a close eye on your primer indents.  If they are consistently well-centered, don't change anything.  

[Fishbreath]

10 hours ago, Carmoney said:

Keep a close eye on your primer indents.  If they are consistently well-centered, don't change anything.  

 

Thanks, that's a good rubric (and heaven knows I need to be told 'don't change anything' more often). I'll keep an eye on the primer strikes when I'm at the range today

 

I did get a pawl from Numrich to look into changing it, but the nose of the Super Redhawk pawl is a bit shorter than the nose of the Super GP pawl, and doesn't quite engage one of the teeth on the ratchet.

[pskys2]

3 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

Thanks, that's a good rubric (and heaven knows I need to be told 'don't change anything' more often). I'll keep an eye on the primer strikes when I'm at the range today

 

I did get a pawl from Numrich to look into changing it, but the nose of the Super Redhawk pawl is a bit shorter than the nose of the Super GP pawl, and doesn't quite engage one of the teeth on the ratchet.

Make sure you try it with a slow & deliberate stroke, like a 50 yard shot.  Late timing will show up there quicker than with our usual yankin' & crankin' method.

[MWP]

1 hour ago, pskys2 said:

Make sure you try it with a slow & deliberate stroke, like a 50 yard shot.  Late timing will show up there quicker than with our usual yankin' & crankin' method.

I’ve got a practice gun that only works at full steam. Always funny when I send a few moons then let someone else try it and it doesn’t work. 

[Fishbreath]

At lunch today, I popped up to the range for some practice with the 9mm gun, and to verify that it and the .357 were both zeroed. The .357 is hitting primers off-center (slightly to the right, slightly up).

 

On the one hand, if my aggressive reloads bent the crane tube, it would be bent in that direction, and it would explain both the nature of the off-center primer hits and late carry-up.

 

On the other hand, the primers hits have been off-center since I bought the gun (I just wanted to verify the direction), and the sideways displacement of the primer hit is enough that I'd expect the cylinder to be visibly out of true if it were bending-related.

 

It is basically impossible to replicate the timing issue without trying to, so it'll serve as the backup gun until such time as I have a third, and can let Ruger take a look at this one, again.

 

Edit/update from the next day: the off-center primer hits might just be the way the guns are. Measuring the crane in various ways, I see no evidence of bending, and the new 9mm isn't quite centered either (although it's closer than the .357).

Edited March 3, 2022 by Fishbreath