New to .223

[midatlantic]

I’ve been Reloading pistol cartridges for sometime, and 6.5 Creedmoor reusing my own brass. I am now thinking of Reloading .223. 

I’m unclear about how reliable, or unreliable, is once fired .223 brass, which might be fired more than one time of course.

 

Some experienced rifle folks tell me they won’t reload .223 as the brass is not designed for that. Others say reload cases only twice, which means not using commercially processed brass, as there is no way to tell how often it’s been fired.

 

so what’s the risk or danger of using commercially processed .223 brass?

 

 Thanks for all advice. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guy Neill]

I'm not certain ANY brass was designed to be reloaded.  Even when sold as cases you could argue that you load them as reloading is only after they have been fired.

 

A commercial brass processor should cull any unusable cases - those with tears, cracks, mangled.

 

Bottle-neck cases have some additional considerations than straight wall cases, but pose no special problems regarding using them for reloading.  They will need trimming periodically and you need to be certain to set the shoulder back a bit to facilitate chambering.  Semi-auto guns may require different sizing than bolt guns.

 

Get some of the cases.  If you have questions, check with experienced reloaders in your group or ask questions here.

 

Read the rifle reloading section of your manual(s).

 

 

[AHI]

223 is arguably the most reloaded rifle caliber . 

[George16]

Like Guy stated, bottleneck cases have some additional considerations when reloading them. Always make sure there are no crack, splits and lubed well prior to decapping and resizing them. You can also just neck size them as long as you use the brass on the same rifle they were fired from (fire-formed). 
 

I process and reload .223 and it was the main reason I bought a Dillon 1100 and sold my 650. The swaging capability is 1000 times better on the 1050/1100 compared tot he 650 and with a honey badger trimmer mounted on my processing tool head, I can process (decap, swaged, full-length sized, trim and expand the case mouths using an M die) in one pass.

[HesedTech]

2 hours ago, midatlantic said:

Some experienced rifle folks tell me they won’t reload .223 as the brass is not designed for that. Others say reload cases only twice, which means not using commercially processed brass, as there is no way to tell how often it’s been fired.

Reloading 223/5.56 is no different than what you have already experienced with 6.5. However, unlike pistol I found to prevent case failure it is a must to inspect all the cases for signs of overuse/pressure. The best way is to look for a line up from the base; F Class John has a great video on what to look for. 

 

 

Also I can assure you I have found cases near failure and had one fail during resizing, what a pain to remove from the die. 

 

How often can we reload 223/5.56? If you're diligent in inspections then as often as they pass muster.

[midatlantic]

Great video. Thanks for all the comments. 

[Farmer]

Just like any caliber, if you load them to max or above the brass life will be very short. On the other hand I have some brass that’s been loaded moderately up to 10 times with no problem. Also have some at max that start to fail after only 3-4 reloading’s. I have gotten some once fired range brass that must have been fired in a very loose/worn rifle because there’s a ejection mark on the head and they are severely bulged. Those generally get tossed after failing the paper clip test. 

[Chills1994]

8 hours ago, midatlantic said:

I’ve been Reloading pistol cartridges for sometime, and 6.5 Creedmoor reusing my own brass. I am now thinking of Reloading .223. 

I’m unclear about how reliable, or unreliable, is once fired .223 brass, which might be fired more than one time of course.

 

Some experienced rifle folks tell me they won’t reload .223 as the brass is not designed for that. Others say reload cases only twice, which means not using commercially processed brass, as there is no way to tell how often it’s been fired.

 

so what’s the risk or danger of using commercially processed .223 brass?

 

 Thanks for all advice. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can tell you this about my experience using once fired commercially processed brass.

 

Some of the 2,000 pieces I bought are suffering from a banana shape.  In turn, that causes the loaded rounds to have runout issues or concentricity issues.

 

Now, whether that was :

 

A.  an original manufacturing defect from the Lake City arsenal

 

or

 

B.  A side effect of being fired from a military machine gun or some ragged out M-16/M-4

 

or

 

C.  A side effect from being processed on a motorized 1050

 

or

 

D.  All of the above

 

remains to be seen.

 

But what sucks is I probably cranked out 300 rounds with 69gr SMKs, and probably another 200 rounds with 77gr SMKs only to discover that I was getting 3 inch to 4 inch groups at 100 yards.

 

Arrrgghh!!!

 

If I am paying a Cadillac price for a bullet, I expect Cadillac like groups at 100 yards.

 

I have google searched my problem with my brass, and yes, there are a few websites that say the fired brass has become banana shaped because the brass is thinner on one side.  It started out as a manufacturing defect.

 

Soooo….I’ll never buy processed brass ever again.  Call it once burnt twice shy.

 

I have a 650 with the Swage It tool for getting rid of the crimps.  Plus I have gobs of Federal (aka LC) factory XM193 and XM855 ammo that I save the brass from.  So I can QA/QC the brass from start to finish and be assured of the final results.

 

Here is a vide of my reloads in a concentricity gauge:

And as a comparison, here is some Black Hills factory ammo that has produced the best groups of any 55 grainer I have ever shot:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HesedTech]

8 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

But what sucks is I probably cranked out 300 rounds with 69gr SMKs, and probably another 200 rounds with 77gr SMKs only to discover that I was getting 3 inch to 4 inch groups at 100 yards.

For better accuracy, even with non-matched brass, use a charge master or equivalent for accurate charges.  The Dillon powder drop just isn’t up to par for match grade production. 

[Chills1994]

4 hours ago, HesedTech said:

For better accuracy, even with non-matched brass, use a charge master or equivalent for accurate charges.  The Dillon powder drop just isn’t up to par for match grade production. 

Define match grade?

 

These were made on a Dillon with the Dillon powder measure:

 

[Chills1994]

To answer the OP’s second question about “how to tell the number of times the brass has been fired?”

 

If it is Lake City brass or some other military brass with crimped in primers, you go to knock the old primer out….to decap it….

 

Then when you try to reprime it, your new primers won’t go in at all or won’t go in smoothly, then the crimp is still there.

 

That is how you know it is once fired brass.

 

You will have to remove the crimp before repriming them.  And then reloading them for the very first time.

 

 

[Farmer]

14 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

I can tell you this about my experience using once fired commercially processed brass.

 

Some of the 2,000 pieces I bought are suffering from a banana shape.  In turn, that causes the loaded rounds to have runout issues or concentricity issues.

 

Now, whether that was :

 

A.  an original manufacturing defect from the Lake City arsenal

 

or

 

B.  A side effect of being fired from a military machine gun or some ragged out M-16/M-4

 

or

 

C.  A side effect from being processed on a motorized 1050

 

or

 

D.  All of the above

 

remains to be seen.

 

But what sucks is I probably cranked out 300 rounds with 69gr SMKs, and probably another 200 rounds with 77gr SMKs only to discover that I was getting 3 inch to 4 inch groups at 100 yards.

 

Arrrgghh!!!

 

If I am paying a Cadillac price for a bullet, I expect Cadillac like groups at 100 yards.

 

I have google searched my problem with my brass, and yes, there are a few websites that say the fired brass has become banana shaped because the brass is thinner on one side.  It started out as a manufacturing defect.

 

Soooo….I’ll never buy processed brass ever again.  Call it once burnt twice shy.

 

I have a 650 with the Swage It tool for getting rid of the crimps.  Plus I have gobs of Federal (aka LC) factory XM193 and XM855 ammo that I save the brass from.  So I can QA/QC the brass from start to finish and be assured of the final results.

 

Here is a vide of my reloads in a concentricity gauge:

And as a comparison, here is some Black Hills factory ammo that has produced the best groups of any 55 grainer I have ever shot:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I had some new Rem brass that I was re-forming that was like that. After about 3 reloading’s it wouldn’t chamber easily because the neck was too thick on one side. Un-formed it was about .001-.0015 thicker on one side and just got worse with each re-load. 

[Chills1994]

57 minutes ago, Farmer said:

I had some new Rem brass that I was re-forming that was like that. After about 3 reloading’s it wouldn’t chamber easily because the neck was too thick on one side. Un-formed it was about .001-.0015 thicker on one side and just got worse with each re-load. 

Uggg…

 

who wants to shave necks on .223 ammo that is going to be blasted through an AR15?

 

Forget that!

[HesedTech]

3 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

Define match grade?

 

These were made on a Dillon with the Dillon powder measure:

Ok Chills you win!
 

After posting about your 3-4” accuracy,  showing your hits (I assume 100 yard accuracy) with H335 then, and in-spite of all the precision rifle competitors and endless discussions across the internet about powder droppers verses trickle measure, the use of stick powders verses fine grain ball, you win. 
 

A drop powder measure is just as accurate as a trickle measure with a quality scale. 
 

It’s a hobby and a sport participate in what ever way brings the most joy to you. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by HesedTech

[Farmer]

20 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

Uggg…

 

who wants to shave necks on .223 ammo that is going to be blasted through an AR15?

 

Forget that!

Agreed! There’s just so much 223 brass out there to screw with a bad batch. The bad brass I had was 444 Marlin that I was necking down to 338. Just saying it can happen to any caliber. I’m curious about what kind of QC mess we’re going to have when everything gets rolling once again. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Farmer
Added

[Chills1994]

21 hours ago, HesedTech said:

Ok Chills you win!
 

After posting about your 3-4” accuracy,  showing your hits (I assume 100 yard accuracy) with H335 then, and in-spite of all the precision rifle competitors and endless discussions across the internet about powder droppers verses trickle measure, the use of stick powders verses fine grain ball, you win. 
 

A drop powder measure is just as accurate as a trickle measure with a quality scale. 
 

It’s a hobby and a sport participate in what ever way brings the most joy to you. 

Yes, 100 yards.

 

I never said any one way of dispensing powder or charging cases was better than the others.

 

I just ASSumed since our OP is asking about reloading .223 and commercially available pre-processed brass, that it is for an AR15 and not some high zoot F-class bolt action rifle.  
 

I could be wrong though.

 

To a degree, reloading for an AR15, especially on a progressive press with Dillon’s volumetric powder measure, sacrifices some accuracy for the sake of efficiency in order to reload in bulk.

 

If our OP wants to use a Prometheus or Auto Trickler to make reloads for his 16 inch barreled M4gery, I’m not going to stop him.

 

Since the OP prefaced his comment by saying he has reloaded 6.5 Creedmoor, I am sure he has already seen the myriad of ways people can be anal retentive with reloading (weighing cases, flashole deburring, primer pocket uniforming, neck turning, weighing primers, weighing bullets, trickling up powder charges, strictly neck sizing, annealing cases, so on and so forth).  That rabbit hole can get very deep.

 

Some guns in some calibers just aren’t worth that much effort.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HesedTech]

2 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

Some guns in some calibers just aren’t worth that much effort.

While I dabble in long range rifle (308 win and 6.5 Creedmore), my main sport is USPSA pistol. However,  in our area we have a State tactical rifle series, which is a combo of close shooting like USPSA and various accuracy stages with shots out to 400 yards (I use an un-magnified dot BTW) and like USPSA, time is part of the scoring. For the 200+ yard shots I found eliminating the ammo factor with very accurate and consistent ammo, allowed me to solely focus on positions, sight picture, wind, and trigger pull as the only variables. To make such accurate and predictable ammo we go to the whole precision rifle thing, including trickling the powder, in loading, but only for those stages requiring such.  The close, inside 100 yard, stuff is run with cheap 55 grain bullets and a Dillon powder drop. It frankly doesn’t matter what the SD is or MOA are, as long as it lands in the A zone or hits an 8” plate. 

 

I apologize for being sarcastic and I was wrong, but when a person wants accuracy beyond adequate, we both well know the process gets more detailed.  
 

Thank you for your reply. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by HesedTech

[TonytheTiger]

It's pretty easy to make sub moa ammo on a progressive press. I don't shoot in any sports requiring more accuracy than that, but if I did I would do whatever Tubb did to his 550 to win national titles with it.

[Chills1994]

I have Tubb’s video on VHS.  Yeah, it’s been a while and/or I am dating myself .  Let me see if these pics will load.

 

I can’t recall if Tubb said how he tweaked his 550:

 

 

or if the particular 1050 mentioned here had improvements made to it:

 

 

 

[HesedTech]

5 hours ago, TonytheTiger said:

It's pretty easy to make sub moa ammo on a progressive press. I don't shoot in any sports requiring more accuracy than that, but if I did I would do whatever Tubb did to his 550 to win national titles with it.

Just so you know I use a 550 with floating dies and a locked tool head, but I do not powder drop the precision stuff with the Dillon powder measure.  After sizing and cleaning I chamfer the brass for 223/5.56 and use a NOE plug to final the necks for bullet tension.

 

It’s all about the desired amount of time and effort to assure reliable and desired consistency of each round. Each of us has a process..

 

If you all want a good video about using a 550 or 650 for precision loading check out F Class John on you tube. These days I don’t think Tubbs uses just a Dillon for precision rifle any more. Go to his web site and you’ll see what he uses now. Pretty high end stuff, precision dies .

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by HesedTech

[NuJudge]

Durability of once-fired brass depends on what what it was fired in before, and what has been done since.  

 

A lot of the once-fired brass that has been offered to me was fired in fully automatic firearms, many of which have loose headspace.  My experience is that such brass takes a lot more work to make it useable (perhaps requiring Small Base full length sizing dies), and it will develop incipient head separations after just 2 or 3 more firings.  

 

With semi-auto rifles, I have not expected more than 4 or 5 firings.  Not only does incipient head separation start appearing, but extractors are hard on case heads.  RCBS developed the X-Die awhile ago, and I am going to try them on .223, .308 and .30-06.  RCBS advertises, and some users confirm, that they prevent case lengthening, eliminate additional trimming after the first trimming, and prevent incipient head separation.