Major Stage Design Peeve

[lynn jones]

I don't mind memory stages, and usually do OK on them.

HOPALONG

yeah, yeah, we'll see sunday, punk!

lynn

[ima45dv8]

At our monthly match, we generally will have a stage like this (out of 7 total). They are hard, but I don't regret having them in the mix. It adds to the overall diversity of the match structure and gives people a chance to get some practice with this type of stage before going to a state, area or national match. And practice with this type of stages does help.

I know that in a given match it's harder for some shooters than others, but the same could be said for all the other stages, too.

Edited November 17, 2005 by ima45dv8

[Jim Norman]

Unfortunately, this is very true. As many have stated, 5 minutes is frequently not enough for the squad amoeba to work it's way through the stage to everyone's satisfaction and comfort level. Allowing stage inspections prior to the match, or after the day's shooting would go a long way to help alleviate this phenomenon. I was told by one shooter who went to A2 that they had a decent amount of animosity on their squad due to this issue - it was felt that some shooters became rude in their pursuit of finding the best solution in the 5 minutes allotted, apparently pushing other shooters out of positions, etc....

My thoughts at the moment on this subject are:

Is allowing some shooters that can arrive a day early to walk the match at wiull fair? I travel 2-3 hours to shoot an Area match in one day. THis saves me lodging costs, Dinner and allows me a night at home with my family. I get 5 minutes on Saturday to see a stage. You however decide to take a day off from work and spend all day watching and walking a difficult stage to exactly map out your every move. Your score is higher than mine, but on a regular basis at our local matches where we both only get to show up and see the stages the day of the match because they simply do not exist a day in advance I regularly kich your butt. Who is the better practical shooter?

In a "Perfect World" wouldn't it be great if all stages were surprise? All you know is that there are "Zombies" on the stage and "Good People" at the sound of the buzzer, your job is to dispatch the zombies as quickly as you can while avoiding hitting any of the nice people. I suppose one concession would have to be number of targets since after the first shooter everyone that can count would have a reasonable idea of target counts.

And of course my thoughts are subject to change.

Jim Norman

Edited November 17, 2005 by Jim Norman

[Barrettone]

At our monthly match, we generally will have a stage like this (out of 7 total). They are hard, but I don't regret having them in the mix. It adds to the overall diversity of the match structure and gives people a chance to get some practice with this type of stage before going to a state, area or national match. And practice with this type of stages does help.

I know that in a given match it's harder for some shooters than others, but the same could be said for all the other stages, too.

I agree with IMA45DV8, memory stages should be part of the mix. However, Area 2 had waaaaay too many of them IMHO. Conservatively, 5 of them were all out memory stages. That is simply too much, especially if you cannot preview the stages, and only get 5 minutes. It favors the higher level shooters too much, and when distances are great, the open shooters get a huge advantage. I felt that because Area 2 is a hotbed of GM's, that they wanted to present a very challenging match for them. Unfortunately, that means that the other shooters get lost in the mix. Especially when it effects your place in line for the prize table in the overalls.

My idea of a good match, is one that is well-rounded and tests a vast array of skill sets for ANY shooter from D class to GM. At Area 2 we had only two COF's with a round count of less that 28 rounds. I think they got sucked in to the round count craze (you don't need high round count to have a great match). The stages need to be balanced, so that ALL SHOOTERS who are good at short and medium COF's get tested equally. Some people are good at "burn 'em down" stages, and 15-20 medium field courses. Those skills need to be tested as well, and more importantly, in proportion to the overall match round count.

I will say this for Area 2 though...The staff was EXCELLENT!!! Barbara and her husband worked their a$$es off to deliver the goods. Match management was superb, and the RO's were friendly. Would I attend again??? Hell yes!!! I would like them to tweak their stage design process a bit, but if that is the worst problem at the match, I'll take it. The weather was nice, and the company great!!! Oh...and did I mention the prize table??? $180,000 worth of stuff to be divied-up between 350 shooters...not too shabby. Thanks to all who put this match on...my criticisms are meant to be constructive.

Jeff

[davidball]

Is allowing some shooters that can arrive a day early to walk the match at will fair?

Yes, it is. I understand the desire to be economical and applaud the desire to spend more time with family. But we all have the same options to spend more time and money and arrive early to get a better look at the stages or to drive up the day we shoot and take our chances.

Ain't America great!

[Mistral404]

Complex or memory stages can be a lot of fun. That said, five minutes to walk the stage and develop a game plan is just not enough if that is only what they are allowed. I know the GMs at A2 remarked about this. It became such a point of displeasure that the Match Director mentioned it at the awards. If you are going to have some many memory/complex stages in a row, then allow people to walk the stages the day before. Just because you can ban shooters from walking the stages does not mean it is the right thing to do.

My other peeve is the first shooter only got 30 seconds on a complex stage. It may have been enough for some but not for most. Yeah, I know there is the five minutes that everyone gets. But with a slow moving group of shooters you maybe lucky to see the thing twice.

There is nothing in the rule book that dictates the first shooter only gets thirty seconds. The second shooter got at least 1.5 to 2 minutes to walk the stage because of setup time. The on deck shooter often got two time to look at it.

The RM response was "we did he do that for every other squad?" Regardless whether his was consistent with every other squad does not make it right--he was just consistently inflexible.

And sure the RM pressures the CROs to keep everything on track but...it is about the shooters at the match.

BTW: some of the CROs & ROs were a hoot!! What a great bunch of folks --they really made the shooters feel at ease--Joe, John, Howard, Steve, Bob -- just to name a few.

[George]

Some interesting points being made. I especially like the one about lower mag capacity making multiple appearance of targets a plus for revolver, production and L10.

I think Barrettone said it best when he described the concept of balance in a match. If you throw a few change-up's, then you need to toss a fastball, or two and then foolem' with a slider. I really miss having a standards, or two, a couple speedshoots, a medium field course and then a couple extended field courses. That's what balance is, not just an even round count from stage to stage (30 round+ run-n-gun's for every stage except the classifier is boring in the long run).

Advance viewing does seem to be a problem. Maybe there needs to be a complexity factor utilized in setting the walk through time allowed per stage. Maybe one size doesn't fit all here and a rating scale will help.

I know I can deal with this type of stage pretty well whenever I am way down in the shooting order and watch it 5-10 times, but I will usually screw the pooch on mondo mem tests whenever I get to to go up 1st, or 2nd even after a fiver to look it over.

[ong45]

Mistral404 Posted Today, 05:45 PM

Complex or memory stages can be a lot of fun. That said, five minutes to walk the stage and develop a game plan is just not enough if that is only what they are allowed. I know the GMs at A2 remarked about this. It became such a point of displeasure that the Match Director mentioned it at the awards. If you are going to have some many memory/complex stages in a row, then allow people to walk the stages the day before. Just because you can ban shooters from walking the stages does not mean it is the right

The RM response was "we did he do that for every other squad?" Regardless whether his was consistent with every other squad does not make it right--he was just consistently inflexible.

I'm guessing that the practical considerations of running the match on time prevented the stage ro's from giving more than 5 minutes. This stage could have backed up like crazy if not for the excellent crew running it.

Unfortunately, this is very true. As many have stated, 5 minutes is frequently not enough for the squad amoeba to work it's way through the stage to everyone's satisfaction and comfort level. Allowing stage inspections prior to the match, or after the day's shooting would go a long way to help alleviate this phenomenon. I was told by one shooter who went to A2 that they had a decent amount of animosity on their squad due to this issue - it was felt that some shooters became rude in their pursuit of finding the best solution in the 5 minutes allotted, apparently pushing other shooters out of positions, etc....

At the WS in Ecuador you HAD to be aggresive in your walk through or you won't get a look. No previous viewing of stages was also the rule of the day. I think this is sop every where else in the world?

I agree with IMA45DV8, memory stages should be part of the mix. However, Area 2 had waaaaay too many of them IMHO. Conservatively, 5 of them were all out memory stages. That is simply too much, especially if you cannot preview the stages, and only get 5 minutes. It favors the higher level shooters too much, and when distances are great, the open shooters get a huge advantage. I felt that because Area 2 is a hotbed of GM's, that they wanted to present a very challenging match for them. Unfortunately, that means that the other shooters get lost in the mix. Especially when it effects your place in line for the prize table in the overalls.

You are absolutely right that the experienced GM's have an advantage in the more complicated stages, notice how much the stage 2 winner whupped everyone else . The distance shots affect everyone equally, if you'r trying to compete with the open shooters, GET AN OPEN GUN !!

I am also willing to bet that if the whole match was straigtforward with no tricky stages, the overalls along with the prize table order would be pretty much the same.

James

Edited November 18, 2005 by ong45

[hopalong]

George,

Unfortunately, we here in the Southeast are starting to see these 8 stage, matches with nothing under 20 rounds in a stage matches too.

Not that it is a bad thing, you get your money's worth of shooting.

BUT

There is no Ballance to the match like Barretone and you mention.

Some of our match directors are forgetting the USPSA/IPSC match sugestion of 3 small,2 medium, and 1 long field course recomendation.

IF you can run 8 stages of long field courses and not have bad bottlenecks and waiting, then speed shoots and medium courses can also be had in the same amount of range,and made to work time wise. It just takes a little planning.

Hell, the range I call home only has 4 bays and we had 11 stages of 3-gunning planned for the Mississippi state match until Katrina showed up. And It would have worked, No problems as we had planned it out to work.

Winter is here in some places and still coming in others, so there is plenty of time to plan, cuss, and discuss for next year. Good luck to all!

HOPALONG

[XRe]

I really miss having a standards, or two, a couple speedshoots, a medium field course and then a couple extended field courses.

Agree with you on this point, George. I like having a good mix of challenges in the matches I design. I really liked shooting the one IPSC match I've been to for that reason, as well. The Nats I've shot was pretty varied, too. All (or too much) of one thing gets old after a while...

At the WS in Ecuador you HAD to be aggresive in your walk through or you won't get a look. No previous viewing of stages was also the rule of the day. I think this is sop every where else in the world?

Judging by Saul's newest book, maybe not.

I think we're right back in the "all viewing when the stage is not in use" vs. "no extra time to anyone anywhere anyhow anyway" argument. I've been pretty middle of the road on it - I'm tending to lean towards letting people view stuff, these days - the other way around is just too tough to make perfect, and therefore will always be unfair to *someone*.

The folks to whom their match performance is really important will take the time to arrive early to inspect. The folks to whom it's not, won't - and it's their choice. The same opportunity is offered everyone - it's up to them to use it.

Just my opinion, of course....

I felt that because Area 2 is a hotbed of GM's, that they wanted to present a very challenging match for them. Unfortunately, that means that the other shooters get lost in the mix.

In all fairness, at an Area match, you should be walking in the door expecting a demanding match - and it's fair to expect that the match be demanding to a GM, as well. That means that, it may very well be a *hard* match for a C or D class shooter. I think the hallmark of excellent course and match design is being able to provide a good test for the GM while still making it shootable for a less accomplished shooter (I feel the same way about golf course design, BTW ) - and some matches accomplish this to a greater or lesser degree.

You should expect a strong test at an area match or nationals - that doesn't mean you're lost in the mix, necessarily. However, if you strongly feel that you didn't have a fair test to shoot vs. others in your class, or that the match was too difficult to be fun at all, constructive criticism to the match director is probably the best place to start...

I am also willing to bet that if the whole match was straigtforward with no tricky stages, the overalls along with the prize table order would be pretty much the same.

James

+1

Edited November 18, 2005 by XRe

[Steve Moneypenny]

Some memory tests are just remembering targets are behind that wall, others require you to ignore 10 targets while engaging 3 then ignore those same targets on the next port. it's really pathetic in some cases. i've only shot about 4 stages in 5 years that this was the case but i don't see a valid need for them in that extreme in this sport.

[AZ38super]

I have been reading the different comments being made aimed directly at the Area 2 and thought I should offer up my opinion, not that it makes any difference.

I am a fairly new shooter of just over 2 years now and I moved to open last spring because it works better for me. I am classified as a C shooter for those that care.

I have shot 2 matches other than local club shoots, the 04 & 05 Area 2.

First of all I want to give a hand to all those involved in putting on the Area 2 again this year. It was a excellent shoot are far as I am concerned. Yes is was a tougher match than last year but I also performed much stronger for most of the stages. Everyone I talked to really enjoyed the match. (from all classes)

The stages I did the worse on were ones like 7, 10 & 11 (the so called easy ones) and I did the best on the ones everybody says were too complicated. I placed first in C on both 4 & 5 and 35th out of 125 open shooters and did well on many others.So if I can do it so can everyone else.

The issue of seeing the stages before hand was a mistake. It was addressed over and over and will not happen next year so please stop beating it to death. Even though I live right here I saw the stages for the first time at walk through just like people from out of town.

As for the high round count stages. I paid $200 bucks to shoot so bring it on, and I got my butt handed to me by people shooting 10 round mags over my 28 rounders so maybe I should complain as well.

It is supposed to be the Area 2 Championship so it better be more than a local match, even though we shoot stages like that on a monthly basis. The only way to get better is to push harder and I push along side many of the best and love every minute of it.

I hope to see you all back next year...

Thanks for your time.

[Jim Norman]

Is allowing some shooters that can arrive a day early to walk the match at will fair?

Yes, it is. I understand the desire to be economical and applaud the desire to spend more time with family. But we all have the same options to spend more time and money and arrive early to get a better look at the stages or to drive up the day we shoot and take our chances.

Ain't America great!

Yes America is great. HOWEVER, we are not an elitist society, we are for the most part a bunch of working stiffs. This is one place where you do not have to be in the elite in order to own a gun or participate in our sport. Saying just take a day off from work, spend a night in a hotel, leave the family behind so that you can get 10 minutes more on a stage than the rest of the competitors indicates a trend toward the elitist side that I am not in favor of. That aside, I do and have done exactly that, gone the night before so I can look the stages over, so I can get up on time and be refreshed rather than stiff from a three hour drive. I am not sure that it is something that we can effectively control. Not allowing a preview of the stages is virtually impossible. If I shoot on day 2 can simply stand back and watch the others run through a COF. I may not be able to walk the stages, but I can certainly learn about them. So all this being said, I am in favor of open access to the stages during down time provided that the shooters don't play with the props or mess with the activators.

It would be nice if there was a realistic solution. How about a match with all surprise stages (And yes I realize that is against the rules not to allow a walk-though at all.)

Jim Norman

[davidball]

Saying just take a day off from work, spend a night in a hotel, leave the family behind so that you can get 10 minutes more on a stage than the rest of the competitors indicates a trend toward the elitist side that I am not in favor of.

I respectfully disagree. We choose which occupation we pursue and therefore the amount of financial resources we will have available to us and we choose how we will spend those resources. If I decide Indy car racing is the sport for me then I need substantially more resources than taking up softball. I am also a working stiff. I choose to budget so that I can bring my family with me to matches (I am also fortunate in that my wife participates in the sport). My boys have to put up with time at the range but they get to swim at the hotel, have a nice dinner out and usually get to do something special in the area of the match either before or after the match.

Match management should be like a course of fire - give as many options as possible so everyone can decide which one they choose based on their own preference.

Sorry if this is a thread drift.

Jim, understand that there is no animosity here. I think we just may have to agree to disagree on our approach to this "previewing stages" issue.

[mhearn]

We call the memory test stages "A Glenn Smith" after one of our members that loves to stick them in our local matches.

Roger Cash was on my squad at Area 6. He had been the RO on the Rock City memory stage the day before. He told our squad how to shoot it and we did well. It was still a rushed deal dialing that stage in to the memory bank. It was a significant advantage. Which sets up a point. Memory stages can dramatically shift the advantage toward individuals with advance access and intel on a stage. Match directors should keep this in mind and have a plan for decreasing the advantage.

MHearn

[ima45dv8]

We call the memory test stages "A Glenn Smith" after one of our members that loves to stick them in our local matches.

Roger Cash was on my squad at Area 6. He had been the RO on the Rock City memory stage the day before. He told our squad how to shoot it and we did well. It was still a rushed deal dialing that stage in to the memory bank. It was a significant advantage. Which sets up a point. Memory stages can dramatically shift the advantage toward individuals with advance access and intel on a stage. Match directors should keep this in mind and have a plan for decreasing the advantage.

MHearn

[slight drift]

Glenn is evil incarnate. I once shot a stage he put together for a local match that had the shooter wear a full-faced motorcycle helmet. You started with your hand on the open visor, and at the start signal closed the visor before shooting. The helmet smelled like the old barn he found it in, and the visor was coated with vaseline. Thankfully it was just a stand-and-shoot.

[/slight drift]

At Area 6 I was working stats and did the shoot-through thing. When I arrived at "See Rock City II" a squad was already shooting it. They put my scoresheet in near the top (3rd up at that point, IIRC). Once the paperwork was squared away I turned to look at the stage and my jaw dropped!

A guy on that squad realized I hadn't even had the 5 minute walk-through and took pity on me. He drug me from position to position, saying "shoot those from here, and these from here, and the others from there..."

One of the ROs then had to double-check a target that looked like it had not been fully pasted from the previous shooter. *I'm pretty sure he was giving me a few precious extra seconds to see the stage before the start signal.

Much has been said about the 5 minute walk-through not being long enough and that's probably true, but believe me when I tell you that those 5 minutes are an eternity when you DON'T get them.

[Genghis]

if you'r trying to compete with the open shooters, GET AN OPEN GUN !! James

In the words of Max from Tyler, "Rule Number One of Open Gunfighting: Bring an Open Gun!"

[XRe]

Saying just take a day off from work, spend a night in a hotel, leave the family behind so that you can get 10 minutes more on a stage than the rest of the competitors indicates a trend toward the elitist side that I am not in favor of.

I'd have to agree w/ David Ball on this one - my take on being "elitist" about this would be allowing only certain people the opportunity to take extra time - say, the super squad, for instance, or maybe those who make a sizeable donation to the hosting club, or only those who's equipment cost at least $5K, or... After that, it's all a matter of choices and consequences - you make the choices about what's important to you in your life, and you can feel free to choose to be there early, or not, at the expense of other things in your life.

I agree with you, Jim, that an all inclusive, fair to everyone solution that allows ample time to view the stage, and not result in a lot of animosity towards fellow squad mates and match management is pretty much impossible - someone's always going to be unhappy. Unfortunately, suprise stages are also somewhat impractical - you'd have to sequester shooters away from one another, and mask any sounds coming from each berm. Otherwise, people who shoot later will gather details that will prove to be an advantage - suprise is lost after the first shooter... so, even *that* is an imperfect solution...

[Chuck Anderson]

While I appreciate some stages like Area 2 had, I don't like a match composed almost entirely of them. In 04 Area 2 really took a stage design change. Previously there were a lot of all out run and gun stages. While I like them the guy I shoot with really doesn't. Everyone likes different stage designs. Why not use a mix of stages. A couple speed shoots, a couple run & guns, a couple of the technically difficult stages, and heck, even throw in a standards for George. And if you some of you open gunners think the stages were memory courses in your division, try figuring them with 10 rd mags. And no the solution isn't, get an open gun. IPSC has different divisions for a reason and stages should reflect that to at least some degree.

[Bigbadaboom]

I think that these stages should have their own scoring, meaning that any target hit less than twice should receive the appropriate misses but if a multiple viewed target has 4 holes in it then all hits get counted. Time devided by points. This is probably a screwed up idea but then, I also think no-shoots should be scored -5 for D,C, & B hits and -10 For A hits. Why the hell should you be penalized the same for wounding as you would be for killing?

[38superman]

I would have to say that memory stages are my least favorite.

No, that's not appropriate. The fact is I hate them.

I'm sure thats true because they give me the most trouble.

They say everybody has a plan until the buzzer goes off.

No matter how well I think I have it down, on memory stages I invariably end up with FTE's and targets with 4 holes.

I have seen several references in this thread to "See Rock City" at Area 6.

I remember that stage well because I almost had a stroke trying to figure out how to shoot it.

Fortunately, I was near the end of the rotation which gave me more time to study it.

Otherwise, I have no doubt it would have changed the outcome of a close race within my class and division.

Just goes to show that in IPSC as in other sports, success is usually a mixture of skill and good luck.

Tls

[GuildSF4]

In a "Perfect World" wouldn't it be great if all stages were surprise? All you know is that there are "Zombies" on the stage and "Good People" at the sound of the buzzer, your job is to dispatch the zombies as quickly as you can while avoiding hitting any of the nice people. I suppose one concession would have to be number of targets since after the first shooter everyone that can count would have a reasonable idea of target counts.

Since I was an RO at Area 2 (on Stage 7, the most fun stage... ) and we were not able to finish our shooting on Thursday I shot stage 4 (which was a memory stage) with no prep time when I walked up I was placed 2 shooters down... I was finishing loading my mags when I had to go to the line so to me this was almost a blind stage.

My time was slloowww, however I only dropped a few points, no mikes, zero no-shoots and no FTE's. (Can say I don't like shooting them this way, I prefer a little time to look it over first, and would have prefered others could also. I don't mind memory tests, I just prefer shooting tests. I also don't mind multiple exposures as to me it seems to be more freestyle, and allows it to be more friendly to production and revolver.)

[Gary Johnson]

In my opinion... (a hush falls over the crowd)... any stage that requires more than five minutes to decypher is a bad stage.

In other words, if the early arrivals gain an advantage by looking the stage over the day before the match then the design is no good.

Edited November 19, 2005 by Gary Johnson

[Jim Norman]

A couple of points I'd like to clarify.

I am in total agreement that we cannot keep people off, so we have to let them on the stages. My comment regarding the "elitist" attitude I think may be either poorly stated or misunderstood. I do take time off to shoot, I have also done the 3 hour drive to a match, shoot and drive home route. I like getting there a bit early, and don;t have a big problem with it, I just think we need to be carefull how we state "Take off the time and go" Not everyone can do this and it isnot always due to money. There are personal obligations, there can be many reasons, but we should not essentially say tough if you cant make it out a day early. If there is another word to describe that, please feel free to insert it.

I have to say I like Gary's coment: If a stage takes more than 5 minutes to dope out, it may not be a great stage. Oh, it may be fun to shoot and all that, but if you have stages that essentially require getting to a match a day in advance so you can study a staqge for hours so you odn't crash and burn, then I say that that stage is not proper.

My comment regarding haveing all stages as Surprise was tongue in cheek. I realize that we can't do it rules and logistics both will not allow it. Also, it would not be all that much fun and unless I am mistaken, FUN is one of the main reasons we all drag ourseves out of bed early on SUndy, drive an hour tothe range, build a small village, shootinthe heat, cold, rain, or snow, then put it all away again and drive home. Or is for the chance to win your entry fee back?

Jim Norman

[davidball]

Also, it would not be all that much fun and unless I am mistaken, FUN is one of the main reasons we all drag ourselves out of bed early on Sunday, drive an hour to the range, build a small village, shoot in the heat, cold, rain, or snow, then put it all away again and drive home. Or is for the chance to win your entry fee back?

Jim Norman

Jim, I have to agree with you 1000% on this one. Fun and a personal sense of accomplishment are why I spend the time and money. I'd rather get a plaque from a match that recognizes my accomplishment than a check for my match fees (although BOTH is certainly acceptable!).